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keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth)

From "Wolfgang Allinger" <all2001@spambog.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth)
Date 2017-01-23 08:58 -0300
Message-ID <DuRIrDXjQoB@allinger-307049.user.uni-berlin> (permalink)
References <49b3566a-3842-4f9f-a47f-a66590625fef@googlegroups.com> <2017Jan22.180948@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <e20554d8-a66d-4a9d-ad6c-f95fb2c1a66b@googlegroups.com> <e0bca367-5f85-4080-bc57-1514614c69d2@googlegroups.com> <o64fl2$iim$1@dont-email.me>

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 On 23 Jan 17 at group /comp/lang/forth in article o64fl2$iim$1@dont-email.me
 <gnuarm@gmail.com>  (rickman)  wrote:

> On 1/23/2017 12:36 AM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:

>> [keeping SW secrets]

>> Their solution with the MiniForth was that the PLD design can't be
>> reverse-engineered from the PLD, so nobody could build a MiniForth
>> processor except themselves.

> Uh, actually you can.  There are many ways to reverse engineer
> something.  A FSM as simple as the PLD you describe would not be so hard
> to reverse engineer.  Even if it requires monitoring the
> instruction/data stream from memory it is far from an impossible or even
> difficult job to reverse engineer a simple CPU design, especially when
> you have some knowledge of what it is intended to do.

> A logic analyzer and a few days would likely do the job.

I'm shure, you never tried to reverse engineering a FORTH Code.
BTDT

In 1985(?) I compiled a target EPROM with a special 16bit constant for the  
testing of a big ADC controlled by a 8051. I gave the EPROM, the source  
and a description to the HW-developer and told him, that I save no copy of  
anything. (No RVCS exist. With 9 SW-Engineers we had a total 5MB (yes MB)  
of disk space on our central PDP-11.

He solved the problem with the ADC board. But 1 month later he showed up  
with nearly the same problem. And asked me, to tell him the special  
constant. Of coarse I don't remember and he throwed any of may docs away,  
only the EPROM left. PHUGGGH! It cost me and him a hole day, just to  
reengineer that code to find the constant. The modified init word for the  
ADC didn't change, but a lot of other definitions. So I fired two LA and  
an ICE just to find this routine, because most of the CFAs changed in the  
meantime.

And I have my sources of a released version some days after the special  
one. However it's a pain in your ass, to reverse engineer FORTH even if  
you have some sources and excellent knowledge of whats going on.

Don't forget to generate headerless targets to make it worse.


>> That was in 1994. I understand that a lot of processors now have
>> internal non-volatile memory and have a security switch that can be
>> set to prevent people from obtaining the code. Physical security
>> measures such as this are your best bet --- making your code public
>> in a patent and then relying on lawyers to sue after your code has
>> been stolen is like leaving the barn door open and then relying on
>> somebody to go get your horse for you after it has run off.

> Trade secrets are fine, but don't count on the simple security fuse.  It
> is not really a hard thing at all to get past those.  Check on the web,
> there are lots of examples of people opening chips and reverse
> engineering if not outright reading the data inside or the chip design.
> The only real security I've seen in ICs is to have a low power static
> RAM with battery backup internal to your chip.  That is *much* harder to
> get around.  I see this in RAM based FPGAs.

But if you combine the security fuse with some words with a lot of stack  
juggling a flag ( DUP DROP ROT ROLL >R R@ R> pick -ROLL OVER DROP MUL DIV  
XOR MOD SHIFT -SHIFT 2* 2/ ... ) on the stack with nonsense data (I think  
16 entries are terrible enough) and some seconds after starting the  
program, another stack juggling... you retrieve the flag and stop the  
program: "Checksum ERROR!"

I think that they need several days just to find out, that it is FORTH,  
especially if you don't have any hint to FORTH in your code and doc.

Just to obfuscate FORTH, put a string with a hint to a very rare C, ADA or
whatsoever Compiler in the target. Just to keep them busy.

For some nasty customers (they want evaluation board before paying HAHAHA)  
I did it. The never stole a program of mine :)

Another trick: put a serial number TO92 (DALLAS DSxxxx?) to the board and  
check this number, then you even couldn't clone the program.

Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
Wolfgang

-- 
Ich bin in Paraguay lebender Trollallergiker :) reply Adresse gesetzt!
Ich diskutiere zukünftig weniger mit Idioten, denn sie ziehen mich auf
ihr Niveau herunter und schlagen mich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung! :p
(lt. alter usenet Weisheit)      iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, iRak, iDiot

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embedded forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-21 11:27 -0800
  Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-21 11:31 -0800
  Re: embedded forth stephen@mpeforth.com - 2017-01-22 00:52 -0800
  Re: embedded forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-22 17:09 +0000
    Re: embedded Forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 09:43 -0800
      Re: embedded Forth stephen@mpeforth.com - 2017-01-22 12:19 -0800
      Re: embedded Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-22 21:25 +0100
      Re: embedded Forth john <anon@example.com> - 2017-01-22 21:04 +0000
        Re: embedded Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-22 12:30 -1000
        Re: embedded Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-22 20:45 -0800
      Re: embedded Forth stephen@mpeforth.com - 2017-01-22 14:08 -0800
        Re: embedded Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-22 14:55 -0800
          Re: embedded Forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 20:41 -0800
            Re: embedded Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-22 21:19 -0800
      Re: embedded Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-22 21:36 -0800
        Re: embedded Forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 22:09 -0800
          Re: embedded Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 04:15 -0500
            Re: embedded Forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 08:41 -0800
              Re: embedded Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 14:32 -0500
                Re: embedded Forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 11:53 -0800
                Re: embedded Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 15:10 -0500
              Re: embedded Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-23 14:34 -0800
                Re: embedded Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-24 03:14 -0600
        Re: embedded Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 03:43 -0500
          Re: embedded Forth john <anon@example.com> - 2017-01-23 10:32 +0000
          keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) "Wolfgang Allinger" <all2001@spambog.com> - 2017-01-23 08:58 -0300
            Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-01-23 07:47 -0500
              Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) "Wolfgang Allinger" <all2001@spambog.com> - 2017-01-23 18:18 -0300
                Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 19:15 -0500
            Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 14:38 -0500
              Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) "Wolfgang Allinger" <all2001@spambog.com> - 2017-01-23 18:43 -0300
                Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 19:48 -0500
                Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-23 16:30 -1000
                Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 22:23 -0500
  Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 13:44 -0500
    Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-22 13:38 -0800
      Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 00:45 -0500
        Re: embedded forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 22:44 -0800
          Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-23 00:48 -0800
          Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 03:51 -0500
      Re: embedded forth john <anon@example.com> - 2017-01-23 10:02 +0000
    Re: embedded forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-23 09:01 +0000
      Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-23 13:05 +0100
        Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 14:40 -0500
          Re: embedded forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-01-24 01:12 -0800
          Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-24 14:38 +0100
            Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-24 19:51 -0500
              Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-25 11:34 +0100
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-25 22:13 -0500
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-26 11:36 +0100
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-26 14:07 -0500
              Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-26 00:19 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-26 14:15 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-27 13:08 -0800
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                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-27 23:58 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 11:58 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 15:36 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 15:05 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-28 15:57 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 21:51 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-29 09:53 -0800
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-29 19:32 +0100
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-29 11:53 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 01:10 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-29 23:11 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-29 23:34 -0800
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-30 12:42 +0100
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-30 12:36 +0100
                Re: embedded forth ctmalan@gmail.com - 2017-01-30 11:02 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-30 11:04 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-31 04:34 -0600
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 12:15 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 10:15 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 12:20 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-30 14:09 -0800
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-31 03:04 +0100
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-30 20:19 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 17:10 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 14:38 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 23:09 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-31 09:32 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:22 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 01:46 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 05:11 -0500
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 01:30 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 10:21 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 19:37 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 13:26 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 11:36 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 18:13 -0500
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 21:51 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-29 10:20 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-01-29 12:38 -0600
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-29 11:49 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-04 04:22 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-04 17:54 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-04 20:26 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-05 07:53 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 11:08 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 11:39 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 06:46 -0800
                Re: embedded forth luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-13 19:17 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 06:23 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-15 11:09 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 15:24 -0800
                Re: embedded forth jkn_gg@nicorp.f9.co.uk - 2017-02-16 09:49 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-17 09:12 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 12:47 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-17 16:18 -0800
                Re: embedded forth luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-16 08:43 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-05 20:47 +0000
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 13:36 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-05 23:18 +0000
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 21:10 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-06 11:12 +0000
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 21:15 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 22:45 -0800
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-06 12:04 +0100
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 03:08 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 06:39 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 07:15 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 15:49 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 01:14 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 05:19 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 03:48 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-05 16:08 -0500
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 21:59 -0500
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-28 11:10 +0100
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 06:15 -0500
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-28 19:48 +0100
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 14:37 -0500
                Re: embedded forth mhx@iae.nl - 2017-01-28 07:48 -0800
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-28 19:53 +0100
                Re: embedded forth mhx@iae.nl - 2017-01-28 15:49 -0800
        Re: embedded forth "Wolfgang Allinger" <all2001@spambog.com> - 2017-01-23 18:46 -0300

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