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Re: embedded forth

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: embedded forth
Date 2017-02-08 06:39 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <o7evtj$f4c$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (17 earlier) <5feb22db-9f9c-46df-bdc8-9ae4e14d275d@googlegroups.com> <16c24a97-fe0f-4e16-967b-6e3b058ba4e7@googlegroups.com> <15a3b0b8-fd42-4f6c-85a0-ce3acbbb9643@googlegroups.com> <16b07369-08bd-4e8a-a6b2-d91876d9451b@googlegroups.com> <0c5b0081-b02a-4fb7-9796-12f3c25a2ed6@googlegroups.com>

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On 2/8/2017 6:08 AM, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> воскресенье, 5 февраля 2017 г., 22:08:13 UTC+3 пользователь
> hughag...@gmail.com написал:
>> On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 8:53:30 AM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov
>> wrote:
>>>> This is more robust than your method because there can be any
>>>> number of primitives --- I had hundreds --- you are limited to
>>>> 32 or 64 primitives (some small number that can't be
>>>> increased).
>>>
>>> This is a point to discuss. I have several designs with packed
>>> commands. This requires a serializer from hardware side (not
>>> difficult), but some efforts from the tool side. I leave this
>>> idea at last, because of no visible benefits in real
>>> applications.
>>
>> This has visible benefits in all real applications --- you have
>> more flexibility --- you can write primitives to support that
>> particular application and which are much faster than high-level
>> Forth equivalents.
>
> I have other designs, including what you are talking about. Other
> approaches are: packed commands, variable length (multiple
> bytes/words), wide command. My 3rd generation Forth CPU was optimized
> for Spartan-3 FPGA with new (at that time) 1024x18 RAM blocks. Ive
> try 18-bit command with address filed, so CALL/JMP/short LIT were
> 1-cycle, and 32-bit literals were splitted to to parts. It was
> successful emough, with tens designs done.

I have not found packed instructions to be of much use.  The designs I 
have completed used internal RAM for instruction storage, so the RAM 
speed was not a limiting factor in any way.  Packing instructions then 
just add complexity in the hardware as well as software with no advantage.

I've looked at very short instructions and found them a bit lacking. 
The GA144 uses 5 bit instructions packed into an 18 bit word.  This 
means special things must be done for packing including a number of NOPs 
to align to word boundaries for literals.  The RAM in the GA144 is not 
as fast as the ALU, so this can give good speed, but hard to calculate.

FPGAs are very different from ASICs in many regards that affect stack 
processor designs.  My favorite instruction design uses variable length 
instruction to optimize density.  In stack processors running Forth, 
literals, jumps and calls are the most common instructions.  A 1 bit 
instruction for a literal uses multiple instructions to extend the 
length of the literal.  This works with 3 bit instructions for calls and 
jumps which also contain a literal.  If that is long enough for a short 
jump/call then it's a 1 word opcode.  Otherwise the literal instruction 
precedes the jump/call to extend the range of the jump or call.

In the end I came to realize there were three execution units in the 
design, the data stack/alu, the return stack/alu(for addressing and loop 
control) and the instruction address/alu.  It could make sense to 
provide independent fields in the instruction for each of these so they 
might be combined in many different ways, not unlike the CPU Hugh talks 
about and others like the J1.  But this complicates the compiler which 
is a bit beyond my interests.  I am more used to coding microcode 
manually than designing tools to automate it.


> I don't want to strictly base artitectural features on commercial
> success. Target domains, partner relations, overall economic
> situation meaning too. However, Spartan-3/3E FPGA families were
> successful enough, and designs, targeted that families, took their
> benefits as well.
>
> For Gen5 architecture, new 6-inputs LUT are comes, and next low-cost
> FPGA Spartan-6 appears. Next important thing to improve was targeting
> LUT acrhitecture, so 6-bit command was used, with appropriate
> trade-offs. This is not 'final solution' because I don't believe in
> 'final solutions' :)

It is hard to match instruction size to LUT inputs because there are 
often other inputs such as zero detect, interrupt state, etc.  That is a 
great reason to not have multicycle instructions.  The cycle counter 
becomes more inputs to the instruction decode.


> Similarly, my current design was a certain goal: to fit in lowest
> cost Xilinx Spartan-6 LX4 FPGA, but still provide several independent
> threads. This is not because I want to sell it to everyone, but
> because of certain customer request.

Do you use the pipeline stages for separate threads?  Rather than 
filling the pipeline with multiple instructions from one thread and 
flushing when the address is not linear, each phase of the pipeline is 
treated as a separate thread requiring each register to have N copies. 
Very little extra logic is needed and this can improve the overall 
throughput because of the elimination of pipeline stalls.


>> Forth code is factored quite a lot --- you have a lot of short
>> colon words that call other short colon words --- by comparison, in
>> C you have very long functions (I've seen them 100s of lines long)
>> that don't call many other functions but are written mostly in raw
>> C.
>>
>> As a result, Forth code benefits a lot by making a call to a colon
>> word 2 bytes just like a call to a primitive is 2 bytes. In your
>> system, a call to a colon word is 4 bytes (2 bytes for the CALL
>> primitive and 2 bytes for the cfa). Using the method I described,
>> threaded-code can be something like 2/3 the size that it would be
>> with your method.
>>
>> My method is also faster because there are fewer memory accesses
>> needed when loading threaded code (one to call a colon word, rather
>> than two as with your method).
>>
>> I think if you tried out the RACE you would learn new things ---
>> you know a lot already! --- but I can see that there are aspects of
>> Forth that you don't yet know.
>
> Yes, this is another possible way. I have this implemented too :)
> There are two fundamental approach known from processor design - to
> map additional operaions to IO/memory space or to add it into main
> CPU pipeline. Xilinx use both in their PowerPC hard IP with special
> kind acceleration port. Having operands from CPU registers, designer
> can implement his own command and return it directly to CPU pipeline.
> This is hard enough for PowerPC, but very easy for soft-core. If we
> have, say, a big case operand we can easily extend this case to our
> own operations.

The Propeller approach is to use multiple, equivalent CPUs dedicated to 
tasks such as I/O.  A stack processor can be very small making it simple 
to add more processors to assign to time critical tasks.  No need for 
special "accelerators" unless the task actually requires special 
hardware for speed beyond what a CPU can provide.

Many don't see the advantage of being able to roll your own CPU which 
can be tailored to a task.  That's why Xilinx has two ARM processors in 
FPGAs.  Large and power hungry.

-- 

Rick C

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Thread

embedded forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-21 11:27 -0800
  Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-21 11:31 -0800
  Re: embedded forth stephen@mpeforth.com - 2017-01-22 00:52 -0800
  Re: embedded forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-22 17:09 +0000
    Re: embedded Forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 09:43 -0800
      Re: embedded Forth stephen@mpeforth.com - 2017-01-22 12:19 -0800
      Re: embedded Forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-22 21:25 +0100
      Re: embedded Forth john <anon@example.com> - 2017-01-22 21:04 +0000
        Re: embedded Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-22 12:30 -1000
        Re: embedded Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-22 20:45 -0800
      Re: embedded Forth stephen@mpeforth.com - 2017-01-22 14:08 -0800
        Re: embedded Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-22 14:55 -0800
          Re: embedded Forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 20:41 -0800
            Re: embedded Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-22 21:19 -0800
      Re: embedded Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-22 21:36 -0800
        Re: embedded Forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 22:09 -0800
          Re: embedded Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 04:15 -0500
            Re: embedded Forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 08:41 -0800
              Re: embedded Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 14:32 -0500
                Re: embedded Forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 11:53 -0800
                Re: embedded Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 15:10 -0500
              Re: embedded Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-23 14:34 -0800
                Re: embedded Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-24 03:14 -0600
        Re: embedded Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 03:43 -0500
          Re: embedded Forth john <anon@example.com> - 2017-01-23 10:32 +0000
          keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) "Wolfgang Allinger" <all2001@spambog.com> - 2017-01-23 08:58 -0300
            Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-01-23 07:47 -0500
              Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) "Wolfgang Allinger" <all2001@spambog.com> - 2017-01-23 18:18 -0300
                Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 19:15 -0500
            Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 14:38 -0500
              Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) "Wolfgang Allinger" <all2001@spambog.com> - 2017-01-23 18:43 -0300
                Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 19:48 -0500
                Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-01-23 16:30 -1000
                Re: keep secrets (was Re: embedded Forth) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 22:23 -0500
  Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 13:44 -0500
    Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-22 13:38 -0800
      Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 00:45 -0500
        Re: embedded forth Dale Scott <dalescottnet@gmail.com> - 2017-01-22 22:44 -0800
          Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-23 00:48 -0800
          Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 03:51 -0500
      Re: embedded forth john <anon@example.com> - 2017-01-23 10:02 +0000
    Re: embedded forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-01-23 09:01 +0000
      Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-23 13:05 +0100
        Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-23 14:40 -0500
          Re: embedded forth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-01-24 01:12 -0800
          Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-24 14:38 +0100
            Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-24 19:51 -0500
              Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-25 11:34 +0100
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-25 22:13 -0500
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-26 11:36 +0100
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-26 14:07 -0500
              Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-26 00:19 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-26 14:15 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-27 13:08 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-27 17:54 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-27 15:29 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-27 16:28 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-27 23:58 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 11:58 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 15:36 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 15:05 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-28 15:57 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 21:51 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-29 09:53 -0800
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-29 19:32 +0100
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-29 11:53 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 01:10 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-29 23:11 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-29 23:34 -0800
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-30 12:42 +0100
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-30 12:36 +0100
                Re: embedded forth ctmalan@gmail.com - 2017-01-30 11:02 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-30 11:04 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-01-31 04:34 -0600
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 12:15 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 10:15 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 12:20 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-30 14:09 -0800
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-31 03:04 +0100
                Re: embedded forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-01-30 20:19 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 17:10 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 14:38 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-30 23:09 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-31 09:32 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:22 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 01:46 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 05:11 -0500
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 01:30 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 10:21 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 19:37 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 13:26 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 11:36 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 18:13 -0500
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 21:51 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-29 10:20 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-01-29 12:38 -0600
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-01-29 11:49 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-04 04:22 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-04 17:54 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-04 20:26 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-05 07:53 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 11:08 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 11:39 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 06:46 -0800
                Re: embedded forth luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-13 19:17 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 06:23 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-15 11:09 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 15:24 -0800
                Re: embedded forth jkn_gg@nicorp.f9.co.uk - 2017-02-16 09:49 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-17 09:12 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 12:47 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-17 16:18 -0800
                Re: embedded forth luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-16 08:43 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-05 20:47 +0000
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 13:36 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-05 23:18 +0000
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 21:10 -0800
                Re: embedded forth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-02-06 11:12 +0000
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 21:15 -0800
                Re: embedded forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-02-05 22:45 -0800
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-02-06 12:04 +0100
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 03:08 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 06:39 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 07:15 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 15:49 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 01:14 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 05:19 -0500
                Re: embedded forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 03:48 -0800
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-05 16:08 -0500
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 21:59 -0500
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-28 11:10 +0100
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 06:15 -0500
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-28 19:48 +0100
                Re: embedded forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-01-28 14:37 -0500
                Re: embedded forth mhx@iae.nl - 2017-01-28 07:48 -0800
                Re: embedded forth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-01-28 19:53 +0100
                Re: embedded forth mhx@iae.nl - 2017-01-28 15:49 -0800
        Re: embedded forth "Wolfgang Allinger" <all2001@spambog.com> - 2017-01-23 18:46 -0300

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