Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ]

Subject	Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ]
Newsgroups	comp.theory
References	<29qdnTcRYNdXn5n8nZ2dnUU7-LfNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87v94rzye7.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <z9mdnaGTLJUagJn8nZ2dnUU7-W3NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bl6jmzcb.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <ndednaSwVuJe1Zn8nZ2dnUU7-XXNnZ2d@giganews.com>
From	Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID	<ChZMI.70615$Nq7.68279@fx33.iad> (permalink)
Organization	Forte - www.forteinc.com
Date	2021-07-30 13:28 -0700

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On 7/30/21 11:45 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/30/2021 1:27 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 7/30/2021 9:09 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>> I have trivial implementations of the functions you are hiding that
>>>> give
>>>> exactly those results.  I don't think I've "defeated Rice" but perhaps
>>>> you should worry that someone else will come up with the H and H2 I
>>>> have
>>>> and publish first!
>>>
>>> Yet those trivial implementations do not have complete execution
>>> traces showing that a partial halt decider does correctly decide the
>>> halt status of its input.
>>
>> My point was that what you posted proves nothing.  You need to post code
>> and then prove that it decides a "non-trivial" property of Turing
>> machines.
>>
> 
> In prior conversations long ago it has been established that dividing
> inputs having pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) from ones that do
> not does refute Rice's theorem.
> 
> A very careful study on the x86 assembly language execution trace does
> prove that H/H2 does decide its inputs correctly. On the basis of
> knowing that H/H2 does decide its inputs correctly there is no need to
> see the H/H2 code.

The issue is that self-reference is a SYNTACTIC decision, not a SEMANTIC
decision. Rice is only about SEMANTIC decisions.

> 
>>> machine stack stack machine assembly
>>> address address data code language
>>> ======== ======== ======== ========= =============
>>> ...[00000cd2][001017ed][00000000] 55 push ebp
>>
>> No execution trace can prove what you claimed either.  If you want to
>> know why, just ask.  I think you need to learn Rice's theorem all over
>> again.
>>
> 
> Why do you believe that an execution trace does not prove that H/H2 did
> decide their inputs correctly?
> 
> 

Because it isn't a proper trace of the ACTUAL execution of a x86
machine, skipping the trace of the function H, and the transformation of
a trace of a simulator to the trace of a simulated machine is only
applicable for a simulator that NEVER aborts its simulation (not being a
pure simulator until) so it is doing UNSOUND logic.

This is PROVED By the fact that you say it 'proves' that H^(H^) will
never halt when we also have traces, provided by you, that show that it
will halt.

Thread

Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 08:46 -0500
  Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 15:09 +0100
    Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 10:40 -0500
      Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 19:27 +0100
        Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 13:45 -0500
          Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 13:28 -0700
          Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 21:47 +0100
            Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:43 -0500
              Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2021-07-30 14:51 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:59 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 15:21 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 17:45 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-30 16:32 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 18:44 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 17:25 -0700
              Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-31 23:17 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-31 21:34 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-01 11:22 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-01 23:07 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-02 17:32 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 13:37 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-03 01:25 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 20:02 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-03 02:58 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 21:26 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-08-03 04:10 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 22:39 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-02 22:29 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-04 19:45 +0100
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-02 22:22 -0700
  Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 11:06 -0600
    Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 12:11 -0500
      Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 15:46 -0600
        Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:53 -0500
          Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 16:13 -0600
            Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 17:43 -0500
              Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 17:01 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 17:18 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 18:34 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 20:05 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 21:33 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 21:09 -0600
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 22:23 -0500
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 20:57 -0700
                Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-30 22:26 -0600

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