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Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?)

From Celejar <celejar@gmail.com>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?)
Date 2021-03-18 18:40 +0100
Message-ID <BU4MN-88v-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 12:49:27 -0300
riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm getting pretty confuse with these statements.
> 
> On 3/18/21, Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> wrote:
> > (...)
> > I definitely share your concerns about Facebook (although perhaps not
> > quite your vehemence), but making **blatantly incorrect** assertions like
> > the claim that Facebook is one of the ends of WhatsApp's E2E encryption
> > does not help our cause.
> (...)
> > WhatsApp **apparently** has genuine end-to-end encryption, using the
> > Signal protocol, and neither of the ends is Facebook.
> >
> > Of course, it's closed source, so **we can't know for sure what's really
> > in there**, and I certainly won't use it, but as far as **anyone knows**, it
> > is **the real deal**:
> 
> I added all the '**' to emphasize with precision what I find unacceptable.
> Taking them as a whole they are simply absurd, in a very rigorous, logic
> sense.
> 
> Am I wrong in this, and altogether they conform a serious and reasonable
> argument?
> 
> Because as far as I used to know, once you put one foot in closed-source
> clients territory you're no longer speaking about security but insecurity.
> The whole discussion becomes irrelevant, you're simply **having faith**
> - **in Facebook**, to make it even more intense - , which is, by definition,
> the opposite of reason, science or self-verified-security.
> 
> Is that I'm completely wrong in this?
> 
> How can anyone **know** that WA's claimed E2E encryption is **the real
> deal**?

I agree that no one "knows," in the sense of absolute epistemological
certainty. But we don't live our lives based upon epistemological
certainty - we make assumptions, or assign rough probabilistic weights
to the likelihood of various things.

Is an open source communications software package worthless if the
hardware it's running on isn't open and hasn't been audited? You
certainly can't "know" that it's secure! And even if all your hardware
and software is open, if you haven't audited it *yourself*, how can you
"know" it's secure? The answer is trust - you trust that someone would
notice problems if there are any, and that the auditors aren't lying,
and you assign a low probability to the contrary possibilities.

In the same vein, someone might reasonably assume that if Moxie talks
like this about WhatsApp, then it is likely trustworthy:

https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp/
https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/

(Of course, the first one is from around the very beginning of the
Facebook days, and the second one is still five years ago.)

The bottom line: no, I don't "know" that WhatsApp is secure, but
neither do I "know" that anything I run is. One makes decisions about
what to use based upon a variety of criteria, including how much one
trusts various people and institutions.

And FWIW, I don't use WhatsApp, in part because I don't trust it /
Facebook - but not primarily because I think they may be blatantly lying
about E2E, but more because of more subtle implementation details and
decisions that I, who am not a cryptographer, won't even think to
consider or fully understand.

Celejar

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How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 20:00 +0100
  Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-11 20:10 +0100
    Re: How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 20:30 +0100
      Re: How i can optimize my operating system? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2021-03-11 21:10 +0100
      Re: How i can optimize my operating system? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-11 22:10 +0100
        Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-11 23:30 +0100
          Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2021-03-12 01:20 +0100
            Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-12 12:40 +0100
              Re: How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 15:40 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2021-03-12 17:10 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:30 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:30 +0100
          Re: How i can optimize my operating system? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 08:10 +0100
            Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-12 08:20 +0100
              Re: How i can optimize my operating system? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 09:30 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-12 09:40 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 09:40 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-12 10:50 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 12:50 +0100
                Re: How i can optimize my operating system? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-03-12 15:30 +0100
                Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-12 10:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 11:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Cindy Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 12:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 13:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 17:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2021-03-12 17:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 18:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 19:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 22:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 23:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 19:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) grumpy <grumpy@mailfence.com> - 2021-03-14 00:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 09:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 08:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-13 09:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 04:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 05:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-18 09:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-18 23:20 +0100
                [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-19 01:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-20 13:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-20 19:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 09:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 11:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-21 13:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 14:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-21 14:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 03:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 07:30 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 08:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 08:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2021-03-22 08:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 09:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 09:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 10:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 10:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 10:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 20:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 21:00 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-22 21:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2021-03-22 21:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Viktor Vogel <viktor@policy.redirectme.net> - 2021-03-23 17:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my   operating system?) Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-03-23 19:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) ellanios82 <ellanios82@gmail.com> - 2021-03-23 20:30 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-23 21:50 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Weaver <weaver@riseup.net> - 2021-03-22 21:50 +0100
                Re: SERIOUSLY DANGEROUSLY OFF-TOPIC verb conjugation <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-23 09:30 +0100
                Re: SERIOUSLY DANGEROUSLY OFF-TOPIC verb conjugation Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2021-03-23 12:00 +0100
                Re: System hacks more than one year. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-22 20:50 +0100
                Re: System hacks more than one year. Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2021-03-22 21:20 +0100
                Re: System hacks more than one year. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-22 21:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-22 10:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2021-05-08 14:20 +0200
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-05-08 13:30 +0200
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-20 19:20 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my  operating system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 09:30 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-20 20:40 +0100
                Re: [OT] Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-21 03:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 21:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-18 21:40 +0100
                [OT] Debian Offtopic (Was: Re: Social-media antipathy)) Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2021-03-18 22:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-18 09:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 10:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-18 11:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 15:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 16:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 17:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) riveravaldez <riveravaldezmail@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 22:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-19 01:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2021-03-19 01:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-18 17:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 18:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) tomas@tuxteam.de - 2021-03-18 17:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2021-03-18 18:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2021-03-18 18:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-13 15:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-03-13 15:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-13 15:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 22:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-13 22:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 22:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 00:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Tom Yates <madhatter@teaparty.net> - 2021-03-14 07:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 11:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 09:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 12:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 12:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 13:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-14 13:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2021-03-14 15:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-15 10:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-15 10:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 19:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 19:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2021-03-14 18:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2021-03-12 18:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Peter Hillier-Brook <phb@hbsys.plus.com> - 2021-03-12 20:10 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) "Jeremy Nicoll" <jn.ml.dbn.25@letterboxes.org> - 2021-03-12 20:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 20:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-03-12 18:30 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2021-03-13 11:00 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2021-03-13 22:20 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy "James H. H. Lampert" <jamesl@touchtonecorp.com> - 2021-03-14 15:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Will Mengarini <seldon@eskimo.com> - 2021-05-09 10:00 +0200
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) grumpy <grumpy@mailfence.com> - 2021-03-12 20:40 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating  system?) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2021-03-12 20:50 +0100
                Re: Social-media antipathy (was Re: How i can optimize my operating system?) William Torrez Corea <willitc9888@gmail.com> - 2021-03-14 05:30 +0100

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