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Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

From Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state
Date 2020-06-05 13:10 +0200
Message-ID <Aeioy-2CN-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References <AaZV7-55P-5@gated-at.bofh.it> <AcIZP-2qI-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <AcPHX-6pd-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <AdZcf-7GD-41@gated-at.bofh.it> <Ae42d-28b-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
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On 04.06.20 21:46, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2020-06-04 at 10:30, David Wright wrote:
> 
>> On Mon 01 Jun 2020 at 12:15:02 (+0200), Marco Möller wrote:
> 
>>> The short answer to this thread is that unfortunately Debian is
>>> not prepared with a simple solution for this simple task, but
>>> sophisticated workarounds are needed.
>>
>> As has been explained, it's not so simple, because *your* focus is
>> solely on the last apt command that you typed, whereas the package
>> management system is concerned with the whole system. Apt deals with
>> the system as a current state, and not as a chance sequence of
>> commands in reaching that state which must be reversible and
>> replayable, back and forth.
>>
>> When you install some packages and change your mind, just copy and
>> paste the line from /var/log/apt/history.log, replacing install with
>> remove (or purge). Sophisticated?
> 
> Doesn't that fail to address the exact Recommends-related scenario which
> was his original complaint?
> 
> 
> Say A and B both recommend C, and no other relevant packages do. Then:
> 
> $ apt-get install --no-install-recommends A
> $ apt-get install B
> $ apt-get purge B
> $ apt-get autoremove
> 
> As I recall and understand it, his original complaint is that this will
> then leave C installed, even though the context for the permission for
> it to be installed (the installation of B) no longer applies.
> 
> (Similarly if you install A after installing B but before the
> autoremove.)
> 
> By contrast,
> 
> $ apt-get install B
> $ apt-get purge B
> $ apt-get autoremove
> $ apt-get install --no-install-recommends A
> 
> will leave C not installed.
> 


Thank You! You perfectly understood me and put it into clear words.


> He appears to argue (if not all that clearly) that the package manager
> should be tracking "install Recommends?" status on a per-package basis
> (i.e., probably in /var/lib/dpkg/status), such that only packages for
> which that flag is true will be considered as preventing a Recommended
> package from being autoremoved, even when Recommends are configured to
> be important. This would then let those two scenarios produce the same
> result, which could be argued to be valuable for "least surprise"
> consistency reasons.
> 
> Given the existence of the ability to configure Suggests as important,
> presumably an analogous flag would then need to be tracked per-package
> for Suggests as well.
> 
> Structurally this doesn't even seem too difficult to design, at a naive
> outsider's glance, but how practical it would be to implement - both in
> terms of code, and in terms of the data that would have to be tracked
> and stored, as well as in terms of implementing both on top of the
> existing stored data which does not track this - may be quite another
> story.
>
>   > It gets trickier again when you start to consider more complex
> scenarios, such as what happens when you change the "install
> Recommends?" status for an installed-as-Recommends package later on.
> 
> When you install A with --no-install-recommends, C would clearly get
> that status set to "false".
> 
> But when you install B without that switch, should C's "install
> Recommends?" status change to "true"?
> 
> If the answer is yes, then the problem he was complaining about returns.
> 
> But if the answer is no, then if you later remove A, C is now in a
> different status from what you'd have gotten if you installed B (and its
> Recommends) without having ever installed A in the first place.
> 
> I don't see as simple or straightforward a way to design around that
> problem. At that point, I think you would indeed have to start tracking
> the installation history in tree fashion, and I don't even know what the
> data structures or the necessary stored data for handling that elegantly
> or cleanly would need to look like.
> 

Because of this more complex scenario I suspected that not simply a flag 
might suffice and therefore suggested that a tracking list would be 
needed for registering exactly by WHICH other package a certain package 
became recommended and drawn in. This list would get longer if more than 
one package would have asked for the recommended, certain package, and 
if this certain package specific list would result empty again then this 
would flag it for allowed autoremoval. Of course the certain package 
should not be an essential package like installed during the intial 
Debian installation, but this requirement is what the current apt is 
already considering for all packages anyway.

After your post nicely confirmed that my idea was perfectly understood, 
I will leave it here in the thread as it is. In the near future I will 
organize my words, probably copying some of the statements from this 
thread, and send it as a feature request to the apt developers. I think 
there is not more which we can do as simple users at this point.

Best wishes, Marco!

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Thread

Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-27 10:50 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-27 15:50 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:20 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 13:50 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-28 14:10 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 15:00 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-28 15:10 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:20 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-05-28 14:50 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:00 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 16:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 16:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:20 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-05-28 18:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-29 09:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 16:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-29 16:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:20 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-05-29 17:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-30 06:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 07:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 11:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 14:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 19:40 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-28 18:00 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Eduardo M KALINOWSKI <eduardo@kalinowski.com.br> - 2020-05-28 17:10 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-28 17:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:00 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-29 21:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-05-29 22:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 05:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-05-30 20:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 08:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 12:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 20:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-31 11:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-05-31 13:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-05-31 14:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state l0f4r0@tuta.io - 2020-05-31 15:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-31 15:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 15:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-05-31 17:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-31 17:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-05-31 21:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 19:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-05-31 22:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 23:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-04 16:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-06-04 22:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-05 17:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-05 18:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-06-06 12:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-06 13:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-07 14:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-06 11:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-08 21:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-09 08:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-02 03:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-01 05:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 08:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-02 00:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 11:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Sijmen J. Mulder" <ik@sjmulder.nl> - 2020-06-04 10:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-04 21:20 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-06-01 13:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-01 20:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-02 06:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-02 07:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-02 14:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-02 17:10 +0200
                Re: Override default post-install starting of services [was Return  a Debian system to a pristine state] davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2020-07-05 22:20 +0200
                Re: Override default post-install starting of services [was Return a  Debian system to a pristine state] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-05 23:40 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-28 14:10 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:50 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-05-27 16:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-27 16:30 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:40 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-28 08:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:30 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-05-27 20:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:40 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Sijmen J. Mulder" <ik@sjmulder.nl> - 2020-05-28 11:20 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-05-28 11:30 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state emetib <chadbrabec@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 05:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 12:20 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-06-01 13:30 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-04 16:40 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-04 21:50 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-05 13:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-06 11:40 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-08 21:40 +0200

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