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Groups > linux.debian.user > #222955

Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

From Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state
Date 2020-06-01 05:10 +0200
Message-ID <AcIZP-2qI-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References <Acss1-Me-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization linux.* mail to news gateway

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On 5/31/20 03:28, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> David Wright wrote:
>> On Fri 29 May 2020 at 21:57:06 (+0700), Victor Sudakov wrote:
>>> David Wright wrote:
>>>> Finally,   pkg delete -a   sounds like something from the abattoir,
>>>> rather than anything you'd do to a pet (to use your analogy).
>>>
>>> It's not as terrible as it sounds ;-) It's more from a vet clinic than
>>> from a slaughterhouse. You don't lose configs, you don't lose network
>>> connectivity or remote access during this procedure. You can save a list
>>> of installed packages before deleting them, and reinstall only those you
>>> know you need.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, the FreeBSD package system is not as mature as DEB or
>>> RPM, therefore until very recently the "pkg delete -a" procedure has
>>> been required to get rid of the dependencey hell.
>>
>> OK, that sounds more like what people do on Windows systems, where
>> there's a reset option, except that on Windows you can, ISTR, lose
>> all your own files if they're under C:.
> 
> Since what version does Windows have a reset option? For dozens of
> years, literally, Windows has been notorious for leftovers of removed
> programs remaining in the "base system" and causing unexpected effects.
> There were even commercial products on the market to purge those leftovers.
> 
> FreeBSD is different in this respect. No part of third-party software
> ever gets into the base system (unless you install something manually
> and incorrectly). And of course you don't lose any user data if you run 
> "pkg delete -a"
> 
>>
>> Debian doesn't work that way: you can remove packages from the system
>> at will in a controlled manner. Isn't that what sysadmins do?
> 
> Well, I was not feeling particulary sysadmin-ish about the desktop
> system I wanted to cleanup.
> 
>>
>>>> "apt has a bug, cannot believe it!"
>>>> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/05/msg00567.html
>>>
>>> Well, I must admit, I can sympathize with this person's frustration. He
>>> just got confused among those AutoRemove* advanced options. 
>>
>> I think it's much more than that. The OP appeared to regard the
>> --no-install-recommends option as a *property* that is applied to each
>> package installed under that recommendation regime, and that
>> that property would be preserved for all time. But as the "-install-"
>> in --no-install-recommends shows, it's just an option for the install
>> command itself.
> 
> Dare I say that one needs knowledge beyond a regular user to understand
> these subtleties? 
> 
>>
>>> I, too, was surprised by some Debian features like its tendency to start
>>> daemons with a vanilla configuration right after installation. Still
>>> can't say I like this decision.
>>
>> This has been discussed in the past. Using the term "vanilla" suggests
>> that an ordinary upstream configuration is applied to the daemon,
>> which is not true: the Debian developers apply what they consider are
>> sensible secure defaults, designed to integrate with the distribution.
>> This work is usually documented in changelog.Debian.gz or various
>> READMEs.
> 
> Is the /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d method still the official supported one of
> disabling this behavior when it is not desirable?
> 

In the fairly large number of posts in this thread I don't recall seeing
file system snapshots suggested. My current preference is ZFS, which I
know from experience to be up to what I understand to be the goal here.

However, root on ZFS is a distinctly non-standard and hands on install
that is fairly straightforward and decently documented, but not for
everyone. Moreover, ZFS is not DFSG and GPL compliant, and quite a few
users would avoid it because of that.

Alternatives include LVM and btrfs, and possibly others. I have used LVM
snapshots a little, but not for this use case. It appears to have the
capability to accomplish the objective, as described in

https://linuxconfig.org/create-and-restore-manual-logical-volume-snapshots

for instance.

I have not used btrfs and therefore have no opinion about its fitness
for the case at hand.

Regards,
Tom Dial

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Thread

Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-27 10:50 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-27 15:50 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:20 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 13:50 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-28 14:10 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 15:00 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-28 15:10 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:20 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-05-28 14:50 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:00 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 16:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 16:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:20 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-05-28 18:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-29 09:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 16:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-29 16:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:20 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-05-29 17:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-30 06:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 07:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 11:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 14:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 19:40 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-28 18:00 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Eduardo M KALINOWSKI <eduardo@kalinowski.com.br> - 2020-05-28 17:10 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-28 17:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:00 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-29 21:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-05-29 22:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 05:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-05-30 20:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 08:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 12:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 20:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-31 11:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-05-31 13:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-05-31 14:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state l0f4r0@tuta.io - 2020-05-31 15:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-31 15:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 15:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-05-31 17:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-31 17:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-05-31 21:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 19:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-05-31 22:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 23:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-04 16:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-06-04 22:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-05 17:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-05 18:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-06-06 12:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-06 13:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-07 14:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-06 11:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-08 21:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-09 08:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-02 03:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-01 05:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 08:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-02 00:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 11:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Sijmen J. Mulder" <ik@sjmulder.nl> - 2020-06-04 10:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-04 21:20 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-06-01 13:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-01 20:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-02 06:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-02 07:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-02 14:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-02 17:10 +0200
                Re: Override default post-install starting of services [was Return  a Debian system to a pristine state] davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2020-07-05 22:20 +0200
                Re: Override default post-install starting of services [was Return a  Debian system to a pristine state] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-05 23:40 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-28 14:10 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:50 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-05-27 16:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-27 16:30 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:40 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-28 08:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:30 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-05-27 20:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:40 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Sijmen J. Mulder" <ik@sjmulder.nl> - 2020-05-28 11:20 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-05-28 11:30 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state emetib <chadbrabec@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 05:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 12:20 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-06-01 13:30 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-04 16:40 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-04 21:50 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-05 13:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-06 11:40 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-08 21:40 +0200

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