Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state

From	The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.user
Subject	Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state
Date	2020-05-28 14:10 +0200
Message-ID	<Abpwe-3MO-9@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On 2020-05-28 at 07:40, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 12:15:41PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote:
> 
>> Dan Ritter wrote:
>> 
>>> There is no pristine state for Debian.
>> 
>> There should be, even if this "pristine state" is but a list of
>> packages at the moment of the first boot.
> 
> But that set is NOT the same for everyone.  The installer selects
> some based on the hardware that it discovers during the
> installation, and you select some in the task selection menu.  Also,
> there are several different installer images, including some that are
> meant to be used as live, and some that have non-free firmware
> packages.

As you yourself note, that can be addressed by defining the "pristine
state" package set at install time - either when and as the packages
that are to be installed are selected, or immediately after the
installation has completed - instead of trying to pre-define it before
the install begins.

> If *you*, the one person on the planet who wants this,

Clearly that's not true, or there wouldn't be a user base for the way
FreeBSD does things which led him to have the expectation that this
would be possible.

> would like to achieve your goal, what you can do is get a snapshot of
> *your* packages immediately after the installation, by running
> 
> dpkg --get-selections > /root/initial-packages
> 
> Just hold on to that file, and it will allow you to return to this
> state on the same machine, or conceivably even a different machine.

The suggestion of 'debfoster', from elsewhere in the thread, seems
reasonable as well. Although that would then mean that debfoster itself
would then be included in the list of base packages, which isn't
necessarily desirable and isn't technically accurate.

> If on the other hand your real goal is not to achieve package
> reduction, but instead to *complain* about Debian, well, you've
> already achieved it.
> 
> If your real goal is not just to complain about Debian, but rather,
> to make Debian *change* something arbitrary, just so that you feel
> powerful, well, good luck with that.

It seems to me that his goal (aside from finding a way to do the "revert
to pristine state" in his own case) is to persuade people that Debian
should implement, and in fact if possible should already have
implemented, a mechanism to make such a pristine-state reversion
possible in all cases - rather than having it be possible only if the
user took a particular action, which is not clearly documented or
suggested for that point, immediately after install.

While I'm not particularly happy with the tone of his inquiries either,
and I doubt that I would ever use such a mechanism if it existed, the
basic idea doesn't seem like a particularly unreasonable one. I think
your own pushback against it probably goes too far in its own right.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

Thread

Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-27 10:50 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-27 15:50 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:20 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 13:50 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-28 14:10 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 15:00 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-28 15:10 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:20 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-05-28 14:50 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:00 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 16:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-28 16:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:20 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-05-28 18:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-29 09:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 16:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-29 16:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:20 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-05-29 17:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-30 06:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 07:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 11:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 14:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 19:40 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-28 18:00 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Eduardo M KALINOWSKI <eduardo@kalinowski.com.br> - 2020-05-28 17:10 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-28 17:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-29 17:00 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-29 21:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-05-29 22:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-05-30 05:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-05-30 20:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 08:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 12:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 20:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-31 11:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-05-31 13:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-05-31 14:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state l0f4r0@tuta.io - 2020-05-31 15:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-05-31 15:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 15:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-05-31 17:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-31 17:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2020-05-31 21:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 19:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-05-31 22:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-05-31 23:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-04 16:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2020-06-04 22:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-05 17:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-05 18:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-06-06 12:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-06 13:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-07 14:00 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-06 11:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-08 21:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-09 08:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-02 03:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-01 05:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 08:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-02 00:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 11:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Sijmen J. Mulder" <ik@sjmulder.nl> - 2020-06-04 10:50 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-06-04 21:20 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-06-01 13:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-01 20:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-06-02 06:10 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-02 07:30 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-06-02 14:40 +0200
                Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-02 17:10 +0200
                Re: Override default post-install starting of services [was Return  a Debian system to a pristine state] davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2020-07-05 22:20 +0200
                Re: Override default post-install starting of services [was Return a  Debian system to a pristine state] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-07-05 23:40 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-05-28 14:10 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2020-05-28 16:40 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 16:50 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-05-27 16:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-05-27 16:30 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:40 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-05-28 08:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:30 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-05-27 20:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Victor Sudakov <vas@sibptus.ru> - 2020-05-28 07:40 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state "Sijmen J. Mulder" <ik@sjmulder.nl> - 2020-05-28 11:20 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-05-28 11:30 +0200
  Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state emetib <chadbrabec@gmail.com> - 2020-06-01 05:10 +0200
    Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-01 12:20 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-06-01 13:30 +0200
      Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-04 16:40 +0200
        Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-06-04 21:50 +0200
          Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Marco Möller <talby@debianlists.mobilxpress.net> - 2020-06-05 13:10 +0200
            Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-06-06 11:40 +0200
              Re: Return a Debian system to a pristine state David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-06-08 21:40 +0200

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