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Groups > comp.theory > #118720

Re: What it would take...

From Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: What it would take...
Date 2025-05-12 18:21 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87v7q5n3sc.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References <vvm948$34h6g$2@dont-email.me>

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Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:

> The HHH code doesn't exactly invite confidence in its author, and his theory
> is all over the place, but a thought experiment suggests itself.
>
> If we were not all wasting our time bickering with a career bickerer... if
> we were to really /really/ try, could we patch up his case and send him on
> to his Turing Award? And if so, how?

Eh?

> ISTR that there is suspected to be a theoretical window for him, so I
> suppose what I'm asking is what sort of boathook we would need to poke that
> window a little wider.

What on Earth do you mean?  What window?

> Can he even get there from here? Evidence would suggest that simulation is a
> dead end unless he can find a way to get the simulated program to include
> its own simulation in its behaviour, which he has not yet managed to do -
> but /is/ there a way?
>
> Or could he abandon simulation completely and instead write a TM parser that
> builds an AST and walks it looking for evidence of terminating or looping?
> If he could, would that turn the trick?
>
> Or do we have a latter day Cantor waiting in the wings to close the window
> once and for all?

There is no window.  But your reference to Cantor is spot on in that

(a) It is obvious that there are uncountably many non-computable
functions since there are only countably many TMs.

(b) Direct (i.e. not by contradiction) proofs of the halting theorem use
a diagonal argument, like Cantor.  I think I outlined one earlier, but
there is one in Linz that PO refuses to read.

> Is there, in short, any way of putting out this un-halting flame war and
> turning this group to better use?

I have tired to suggest that everyone simply stop replying to PO.  He
does not want to be right, he wants the attention and after a final
flurry of insulting posts he would probably go elsewhere.

(Rather belatedly, it occurs to me that you might be being sarcastic.
You might be suggesting we just agree with PO and see if that stops him
posting.)

-- 
Ben.

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Thread

What it would take... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-10 02:11 +0100
  Re: What it would take... Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-09 22:18 -0400
    Re: What it would take... Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-10 04:04 +0000
      Re: What it would take... Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-10 08:50 -0400
        Re: What it would take... Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-10 14:24 +0000
          Re: What it would take... Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-10 14:44 -0400
            Re: What it would take... Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-10 20:05 +0000
    Re: What it would take... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-10 10:07 -0500
      Re: What it would take... "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-10 17:25 +0200
      Re: What it would take... wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-10 23:35 +0800
        Re: What it would take... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-10 10:46 -0500
          Re: What it would take... wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-11 00:18 +0800
            Re: What it would take... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-10 11:37 -0500
              Re: What it would take... Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-10 15:02 -0400
            Re: What it would take... Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-11 12:37 +0300
      Re: What it would take... Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-10 15:01 -0400
  Re: What it would take... Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2025-05-12 18:21 +0100
    Re: What it would take... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-12 19:38 +0100
      Re: What it would take... Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2025-05-13 00:58 +0100
        Re: What it would take... TO GET MY REVIEWERS TO PAY COMPLETE ATTENTION? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 19:16 -0500
          Re: What it would take... TO GET MY REVIEWERS TO PAY COMPLETE ATTENTION? dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 20:25 -0400
          Re: What it would take... TO GET MY REVIEWERS TO PAY COMPLETE ATTENTION? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-12 22:27 -0400
          Re: What it would take... TO GET MY REVIEWERS TO PAY COMPLETE ATTENTION? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-13 12:39 +0300
        Re: What it would take... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 03:26 +0100
          How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 21:48 -0500
            Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 04:14 +0100
              Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 22:31 -0500
                Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 23:36 -0400
                Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 04:39 +0100
                Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 00:14 -0400
                Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 23:38 -0500
                Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 07:44 -0400
                Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-13 12:44 +0300
            Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 00:11 -0400
              Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 23:41 -0500
                Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 07:46 -0400
                Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 19:47 -0500
                Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 21:05 -0400
            Re: How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-13 13:56 +0200
        Re: What it would take... Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-13 04:23 +0100
          Re: What it would take... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 04:37 +0100
          Re: What it would take... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 22:38 -0500
            Re: What it would take... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 04:41 +0100
              Re: What it would take... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 22:44 -0500
                Re: What it would take... Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 00:17 -0400
              Re: What it would take... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 23:14 -0500
                Re: What it would take... Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 00:34 -0400
            Re: What it would take... Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 00:16 -0400
            Re: What it would take... Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-13 12:49 +0300
          Re: What it would take... André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-05-12 22:41 -0600
            Re: What it would take... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 00:06 -0500
              Re: What it would take... "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-13 13:54 +0200
                Re: What it would take... Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-13 16:47 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 11:01 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 12:21 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 11:56 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 13:09 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 16:09 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 21:03 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 20:16 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 21:26 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 20:35 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 21:38 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 20:52 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 21:56 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 21:41 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 22:44 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 22:06 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 23:28 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 22:38 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 23:48 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 23:35 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-14 13:02 +0200
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 10:52 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 16:54 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 08:32 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 05:43 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 23:54 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 06:02 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 00:09 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 06:20 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 11:04 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 17:16 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 11:43 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 18:15 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 12:22 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 18:41 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 12:46 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 18:58 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 13:18 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 19:45 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 13:59 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 17:14 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 16:25 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-15 13:22 +0200
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 23:38 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 16:58 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-05-16 13:25 +0000
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 09:00 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-16 10:09 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:19 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-16 11:57 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-05-14 18:25 +0000
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-05-14 18:30 +0000
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-14 07:32 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric -- RP Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 21:14 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 21:10 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 18:06 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 13:12 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 19:00 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-13 19:20 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 02:49 +0800
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 15:52 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-14 12:59 +0200
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 10:58 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 16:54 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-14 07:35 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 16:16 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 22:28 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 16:49 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-14 12:56 +0200
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 21:05 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-14 07:41 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 10:32 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 16:44 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 12:17 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 18:32 +0100
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 12:35 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 11:22 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-14 12:53 +0200
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-14 07:43 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 10:26 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-14 23:23 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 23:14 -0500
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-15 07:19 -0400
                Re: What it would take... People to address my points with reasoning instead of rhetoric Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-13 18:41 -0400
      Re: What it would take... Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-13 04:05 +0100
        Re: What it would take... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 04:23 +0100
    Re: What it would take... Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-05-12 23:38 +0100
      How the requirements that Professor Sipser agreed to are exactly met olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 17:47 -0500
      Re: What it would take... wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-13 07:05 +0800
      Re: What it would take... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 04:09 +0100
      Re: What it would take... Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-13 18:28 +0000
        Re: What it would take... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 19:37 +0100
          Re: What it would take... Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-13 18:40 +0000
            Re: What it would take... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 19:47 +0100
              Re: What it would take... Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-13 18:53 +0000
                Re: What it would take... Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-13 20:01 +0100
                Re: What it would take... Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-13 19:07 +0000
        Re: What it would take... Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-05-13 23:59 +0100
  Re: What it would take... olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-12 12:29 -0500
    Re: What it would take... "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-13 13:48 +0200

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