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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory |
| Subject | Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] |
| Followup-To | comp.theory |
| Date | 2021-08-04 19:45 +0100 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <87o8ad2gmr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink) |
| References | (12 earlier) <GNidnWqU5NEappX8nZ2dnUU7-SvNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgtz4bnj.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <hJmdnSSv8-wLCJX8nZ2dnUU7-T-dnZ2d@giganews.com> <87im0n47cj.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <c8ednf3COs74NJX8nZ2dnUU78b3NnZ2d@giganews.com> |
Followups directed to: comp.theory
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
> On 8/2/2021 8:58 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 8/2/2021 7:25 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/2/2021 11:32 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/1/2021 5:22 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> // Simplified Linz Ĥ (Linz:1990:319)
>>>>>>>>> // Strachey(1965) CPL translated to C
>>>>>>>>> void P(u32 x)
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>> if (H(x, x))
>>>>>>>>> HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>> Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I call the above an HP counter example instance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't stop you. Is the fact that a key part of the program is missing
>>>>>>>> what makes it an "HP counter example instance"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What the rest of the world calls "HP instances" are actual programs
>>>>>>>> (plus any required input). But as I've said, you are using words to
>>>>>>>> suggest things, poetically, in the reader's mind, not to communicate a
>>>>>>>> precise technical meaning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And (according to you) the technical name for this Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the cases
>>>>>>> that Ĥ gets wrong. That sure doesn't seem like a formal defintion to
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>> It's not. The formal definition of the case Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the name of the category where a TM/input pair: (X,Y) is
>>>>> undecidable for X? It seems to make the most sense to simply calls
>>>>> this an undecidable TM/input pair.
>>>> I can't stop you using words like this. But if you want to write
>>>> clearly so that experts can understand you, you would need to learn what
>>>> the words you use mean to other people.
>>>> But part of me is happy for you keep misusing terms like this. It makes
>>>> it obvious that you don't really know how to say what you mean, so naive
>>>> readers are less likely to be taken in.
>>>
>>> I asked you for a correction, simply ignoring this request is not an
>>> honest dialogue.
>> You asked me for the name of a category that is, at best, vague for me
>> because you described the category using technical words in a way that's
>> not usual.
>> My best guess for "undecidable TM/input pair for X" is "a halting
>> problem instance that X gets wrong".
>
> Surely there is a better way to say it than that.
Since I am not sure what you mean, it's quite possible. Misusing terms
means that I have trouble knowing what you want me to name for you. Why
does the name matter so much? Surely the fact that your H is wrong
about the H^(H^) case is what matters, rather than what you call these
cases?
>> I've given you this alternative
>> before, but you don't like it. Maybe you just want a more emotive or
>> poetic term. Shall we call them "spawn of the devil inputs for X"?
>> But step one is for you to read a book so you know what decidable means
>> (in this context). Ideally, you will see from the book that the term is
>> not ideal, and you'll switch to talking about recursive sets. Shall we
>> do that? It might help.
>
> It seems to me that saying that it is a TM/input pair such that both
> Boolean values are incorrect final states for the decision criteria
> gets closer to the philosophical underpinnings of the issue.
No, because you are wrong about that. You've been wrong about for 17
years or more. Every instance of the halting problem has a correct
yes/no answer. "Accept" is the correct final state of the decider only
for those instances that represent halting computations, in all other
cases the decider's final state should be "reject". The fact that every
single TM gets at least one case wrong does not mean there is not a
correct answer for every halting problem instance. Baffling, isn't it?
--
Ben.
Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 08:46 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 15:09 +0100
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 10:40 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 19:27 +0100
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 13:45 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 13:28 -0700
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-30 21:47 +0100
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:43 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2021-07-30 14:51 -0700
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:59 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 15:21 -0700
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 17:45 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-30 16:32 -0700
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 18:44 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 17:25 -0700
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-31 23:17 +0100
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-31 21:34 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-01 11:22 +0100
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-01 23:07 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-02 17:32 +0100
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 13:37 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-03 01:25 +0100
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 20:02 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-03 02:58 +0100
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 21:26 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-08-03 04:10 +0100
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-08-02 22:39 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-02 22:29 -0700
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-08-04 19:45 +0100
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-02 22:22 -0700
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 11:06 -0600
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 12:11 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 15:46 -0600
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 16:53 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 16:13 -0600
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 17:43 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 17:01 -0600
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 17:18 -0600
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 18:34 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 20:05 -0600
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 21:33 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-30 21:09 -0600
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-30 22:23 -0500
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-30 20:57 -0700
Re: Pathological self-reference(Olcott 2004) decider [ Defeating Rice's Theorem ] Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-30 22:26 -0600
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