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Re: Halting problem erroneously defined

From Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: Halting problem erroneously defined
Date 2021-07-17 01:29 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87h7gtok9f.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <r9idnbhmfZqRI239nZ2dnUU7-V_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87im1brtin.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <NNOdnR_Oys-eR239nZ2dnUU7-aPNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87czrjrpsn.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <UrudnVe7N9H2b239nZ2dnUU7-bPNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 7/15/2021 8:49 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On 7/15/2021 7:29 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/15/2021 5:06 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is the same freaking pathological self-reference(olcott 2004) as
>>>>>>> the liar paradox:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Olcott  Sep 5, 2004, 11:21:57 AM
>>>>>> The halting problem is not like the liar paradox in that every program P
>>>>>> either does or does not halt when given input I.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is exactly like the liar paradox in one crucial way:
>>>>>
>>>>> The Liar paradox is neither true nor false because both true and false
>>>>> values are contradicted.
>>>> No.  If you've forgotten, just go back and read any of the posts I've
>>>> made over the last 16 years where I explain why that analogy is a false
>>>> one.  I used to repeat myself in case some innocent reader might take
>>>> you seriously, but I think all students reading this group will be able
>>>> to tell that you are, well, let's just say "confused".
>>>
>>> The aspect that in both cases their Boolean value is contradicted is
>>> the key analogous aspect.
>>
>> You are deliberately vague about "the aspect" since you know full well
>> that every instance of the halting problem has a correct yes/no answer
>> which seems to be very different to the liar paradox.
>
> "This sentence is not true"
> If the Liar Paradox is true that makes it true that it is not true AKA false.
>
> If the Liar paradox is false that makes not true that it is not true AKA true.
>
> If the C equivalent of the Strachey (1965) CPL returns true(halts) to
> P then P loops. If it returns false(does not halt) to P then P halts.
>
> void P(u32 x)
> {
>   if (H(x, x))
>     HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
> }
>
> The self-contradiction of the halting problem counter-examples is
> apparently modeled after the liar paradox.

P(P) (like all computations) either halts or it does not.  You tell us
it halts.  You also tell up that H(P,P) == 0.  H(P,P) == 0 is the wrong
answer for a halting computation.

> I continue to hope against hope that you simply misunderstand this and
> will eventually agree that I am correct.

I merely don't like your analogy.  Are there any facts in dispute?  I
think not.  If you find that the liar paradox helps to explain why your
H gets the wrong answer, then have at it.

> The problem with that is that you simply ignore perfect clarity
> because perfect clarity is inconsistent with your goal of rebuttal:

The facts of the matter are not in dispute.  For F to be a halt decider,
F(P, I) should be true iff P(I) halts and false otherwise.  Your H has
H(P,P) == false when P(I) halts.

Why you are wrong can be summed up in less then three lines stating just
a few of facts that you don't dispute.

-- 
Ben.

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Thread

Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-15 18:22 +0100
  Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 12:42 -0500
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-15 18:48 +0100
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-15 19:00 +0100
        Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 13:04 -0500
          Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-15 19:09 +0100
            Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 13:17 -0500
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 13:01 -0500
  Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-07-15 20:08 +0100
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 15:57 -0500
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-15 23:06 +0100
        Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 18:00 -0500
          Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 01:29 +0100
            Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 19:59 -0500
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 02:49 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 21:43 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-17 01:29 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 11:05 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-18 02:36 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 10:09 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 08:18 -0700
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-20 01:38 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 09:29 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 09:17 -0700
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-21 01:28 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 21:57 -0600
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 13:25 +0100
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 08:56 -0500
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 13:33 +0100
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 09:28 -0500
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 14:44 +0000
        Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 09:52 -0500
          Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 16:39 +0000
            Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 12:13 -0500
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 18:26 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 12:41 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 19:37 +0100
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 11:53 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 13:39 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 12:52 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:40 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 13:57 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 15:09 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 14:30 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 16:06 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 16:09 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 17:24 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 16:48 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 10:22 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 22:24 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 22:09 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-16 13:51 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:57 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-16 16:34 -0600
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 18:25 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 19:29 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 18:59 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:42 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:22 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:33 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 20:19 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 15:34 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 21:30 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 16:57 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 09:39 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined [AM] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 10:11 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined [AM] Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 17:41 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined [AM] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 13:26 -0500
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-16 11:45 -0700
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:37 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 22:28 -0600
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-16 13:31 -0600
          Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 22:06 -0600
  Re: Halting problem erroneously defined wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 03:01 -0700
  Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Charlie-Boo <shymathguy@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 07:35 -0700
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 15:45 -0500
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 20:44 -0700
  Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Charlie-Boo <shymathguy@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 07:43 -0700
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 15:49 -0500
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 20:46 -0700

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