Re: Halting problem erroneously defined

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.theory
Subject	Re: Halting problem erroneously defined
Date	2021-07-16 02:49 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87czrjrpsn.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <-7-dnaKjW-_NPG39nZ2dnUU7-LHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zguns04x.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <r9idnbhmfZqRI239nZ2dnUU7-V_NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87im1brtin.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <NNOdnR_Oys-eR239nZ2dnUU7-aPNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 7/15/2021 7:29 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On 7/15/2021 5:06 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> It is the same freaking pathological self-reference(olcott 2004) as
>>>>> the liar paradox:
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Olcott  Sep 5, 2004, 11:21:57 AM
>>>> The halting problem is not like the liar paradox in that every program P
>>>> either does or does not halt when given input I.
>>>
>>> It is exactly like the liar paradox in one crucial way:
>>>
>>> The Liar paradox is neither true nor false because both true and false
>>> values are contradicted.
>> No.  If you've forgotten, just go back and read any of the posts I've
>> made over the last 16 years where I explain why that analogy is a false
>> one.  I used to repeat myself in case some innocent reader might take
>> you seriously, but I think all students reading this group will be able
>> to tell that you are, well, let's just say "confused".
>
> The aspect that in both cases their Boolean value is contradicted is
> the key analogous aspect.

You are deliberately vague about "the aspect" since you know full well
that every instance of the halting problem has a correct yes/no answer
which seems to be very different to the liar paradox.

In fact, in order to suggest a similarity you have to pretend that the
halting problem is not as I, and many other have stated it.

> Your God damned dishonest dodge fake rebuttal of pointing out there is
> another aspect where they are not analogous is what a lying cheating
> scoundrel would do to artificially contrive a fake rebuttal that would
> fool the gullible.

Get a grip, man!  Stating what the halting problem is and making it
clear that every instance has a correct yes/no answer is not rebutting
anything.  It's stating the issue so that you can choose to address it
if the fancy takes you.

>>> Now we construct a new Turing machine D with H as a subroutine. This new
>>> TM calls H to determine what M does when the input to M is its own
>>> description ⟨M⟩. Once D has determined this information, it does the
>>> opposite.  http://www.liarparadox.org/sipser_165.pdf
>>>
>>> All the modern proofs are based on an input doing the opposite of
>>> whatever its decider decides.
>> Some are.  I am glad you agree that what is in Sipser is a proof of the
>> theorem he states.  Can you move on now, or did you just use that word
>> by accident?
>
> They are referred to as the proofs. If I referred to them as the
> halting problem misconceptions you would have no idea that I was
> referring to Sipser, Linz and Kozen.

You need to find some way to say what you mean clearly.  In the past,
I've tried to help with that but you are not a fan of such posts so I
will leave it up to you.  If you don't consider them proofs, you should
not call them proofs.  If you do, readers are allowed to take you at
your word.

-- 
Ben.

Thread

Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-15 18:22 +0100
  Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 12:42 -0500
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-15 18:48 +0100
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-15 19:00 +0100
        Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 13:04 -0500
          Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-15 19:09 +0100
            Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 13:17 -0500
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 13:01 -0500
  Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-07-15 20:08 +0100
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 15:57 -0500
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-15 23:06 +0100
        Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 18:00 -0500
          Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 01:29 +0100
            Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 19:59 -0500
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 02:49 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-15 21:43 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-17 01:29 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 11:05 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-18 02:36 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 10:09 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 08:18 -0700
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-20 01:38 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-20 09:29 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-20 09:17 -0700
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-21 01:28 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 21:57 -0600
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 13:25 +0100
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 08:56 -0500
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 13:33 +0100
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 09:28 -0500
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 14:44 +0000
        Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 09:52 -0500
          Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 16:39 +0000
            Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 12:13 -0500
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 18:26 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 12:41 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-16 19:37 +0100
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 11:53 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 13:39 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 12:52 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:40 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 13:57 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 15:09 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 14:30 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 16:06 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 16:09 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 17:24 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 16:48 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 10:22 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 22:24 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 22:09 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-16 13:51 -0600
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:57 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-16 16:34 -0600
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 18:25 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2021-07-16 19:29 +0100
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 18:59 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:42 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:22 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:33 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 20:19 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 15:34 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-16 21:30 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 16:57 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 09:39 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined [AM] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 10:11 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined [AM] Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2021-07-17 17:41 +0000
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined [AM] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-17 13:26 -0500
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-16 11:45 -0700
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-16 14:37 -0500
                Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 22:28 -0600
              Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2021-07-16 13:31 -0600
          Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-17 22:06 -0600
  Re: Halting problem erroneously defined wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 03:01 -0700
  Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Charlie-Boo <shymathguy@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 07:35 -0700
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 15:45 -0500
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 20:44 -0700
  Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Charlie-Boo <shymathguy@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 07:43 -0700
    Re: Halting problem erroneously defined olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-19 15:49 -0500
      Re: Halting problem erroneously defined Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-19 20:46 -0700

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