Re: pedagogy

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: pedagogy
Date	2015-05-31 16:56 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87fv6chha0.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <f1506bdf-e9d9-4132-93ee-07d1b22bf2d2@googlegroups.com> <mkchvn$d1u$1@dont-email.me> <ct0l09Fg841U1@mid.individual.net> <87r3pwhjr3.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <ct0o13Fh1ilU1@mid.individual.net>

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"Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> writes:

> "Ben Bacarisse" wrote:
>
>> "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> writes:
>>
>>> "Bartc" wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>> (No, I don't have alternative suggestions, except that a language that 
>>>> can
>>>> used to code almost directly from an algorithm is worth looking at. 
>>>> Maybe
>>>> someone should just implement pseudo-code.)
>>>
>>> The first question that must be answered is: "Is the student willing to
>>> learn a 'throw-away' language?  That is, one that one learns simply get
>>> started, and then never uses again?
>>
>> That's a good question.
>>
>>> If so, that language is Pascal. I sort
>>> of learned Lisp many, many years ago.  Nothing.  When I got my Atari ST, 
>>> the
>>> big thing was Logo. I spent hours on it.  Nothing. As far as I can tell
>>> Pascal is a pretty good cut at a working form of pseudocode.  One huge
>>> advantage over C is that types and variables and initial values are
>>> different things and you damn well know it while it is going on. Pascal 
>>> also
>>> makes very clear the difference between a small integer and a character.
>>> Pascal's wordiness may also make you appreciate C more when you learn the
>>> two languages in that order.
>>
>> But Pascal is an odd suggestion, at least for those reasons!  Pascal is
>> horrid to work in because it is so restrictive and, in my experience,
>> students hate it.  The big plus point (and it should not be ignored) is
>> the vast number of good books available that use or are about Pascal.
>> And because it a language from another century, many can be picked up
>> for pennies.  In fact, I'm about throw about a dozen of them away.
>
> I guess part of the deal was, the student *knows* that he is learning a 
> throw away language. I taught Microsoft Basic, Borland Pascal and Fortran 
> concurrently in college in the eighties.  I never detected the dislike you 
> mentioned. What could a new student possibly have as a basis for comparison? 
> I mean, the flaws of English spelling are obvious, even to a child.  But 
> Pascal?

Its the rigid order of things.  They have to program with a cheat-sheet
printed out next to them the whole time.  It's no accident that almost
every language since has allowed greater flexibility with where things
can be declared.  And don't forget that . at the end!

A flexible syntax lowers the barrier to getting the thumbs-up from the
implementation, and that seems to help initial acceptance.

<snip>
-- 
Ben.

Thread

pedagogy luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2015-05-28 22:42 -0700
  Re: pedagogy Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-05-29 00:57 -0500
  Re: pedagogy Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-29 11:10 +0100
    Re: pedagogy raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-05-29 12:42 +0000
      Re: pedagogy David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 10:02 -0700
        Re: pedagogy raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-05-29 18:23 +0000
  Re: pedagogy Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2015-05-29 13:34 +0200
  Re: pedagogy John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 08:17 -0700
    Re: pedagogy rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com - 2015-05-29 08:33 -0700
      Re: pedagogy Etienne Prud'homme <e.e.f.prudhomme@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 12:25 -0400
        Re: pedagogy John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 14:28 -0700
          Re: pedagogy Etienne Prud'homme <e.e.f.prudhomme@gmail.com> - 2015-05-30 00:58 -0400
    Re: pedagogy gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-05-29 15:46 +0000
  Re: pedagogy Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-05-29 22:16 -0500
  Re: pedagogy luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2015-05-30 00:16 -0700
    Re: pedagogy Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-05-30 11:31 +0000
      Re: pedagogy David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-30 07:10 -0700
        Re: pedagogy Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-30 15:38 +0100
          Re: pedagogy "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-05-31 09:43 -0500
            Re: pedagogy Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-05-31 16:03 +0100
              Re: pedagogy "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-05-31 10:34 -0500
                Re: pedagogy Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-05-31 16:56 +0100
                Re: pedagogy luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 10:28 -0700
              Re: pedagogy Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-31 17:04 +0100
                Re: pedagogy Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-05-31 12:10 -0500
                Re: pedagogy raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-06-05 15:21 +0000
          Re: pedagogy David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-31 09:01 -0700
            Re: pedagogy luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 21:51 -0700
              Re: pedagogy David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 09:14 -0700
              Re: pedagogy "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-06-04 00:48 -0700
  Re: pedagogy luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 22:12 -0700

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