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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #80890
| From | Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c++ |
| Subject | Re: Is this really necessary |
| Date | 2021-08-15 07:02 -0700 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <86sfzax0ur.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink) |
| References | (16 earlier) <sf568p$1o4o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sf5s5l$j75$1@dont-email.me> <874kbti4yp.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <86a6lkxr7s.fsf@linuxsc.com> <87zgtjhizw.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> |
Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> writes:
> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> writes:
>
>> Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>
>>> The wording in C++03 is a bit vague.
>>>
>>> 17.3.1.4 C Library [lib.structure.see.also]
>>>
>>> Paragraphs labelled "SEE ALSO:" contain cross-references to
>>> the relevant portions of this Standard and the ISO C standard,
>>> which is incorporated into this Standard by reference.
>>>
>>> That could be read to imply that the entire C standard is included
>>> by reference, [...]
>>
>> There is no ambiguity in this sentence about what phrase is being
>> referenced for incorporation, and that is the (entire) ISO C
>> standard. If it were meant to incorporate only some portions of
>> the ISO C standard, the sentence would have said "which _are_
>> incorporated" rather than "which _is_ incorporated".
>
> (For those not familiar with the C standard, section 6 defines the
> core language and section 7 defines the library.)
>
> I agree that it *says* that the entire C standard is incorporated,
> but I'm not convinced that was the intent. I admittedly let my
> assumptions influence how I read it.
I think the intent matches the most literal reading of the words:
the C++ standard incorporates the C standard. That doesn't mean
the C++ /language/ incorporates the C /language/, only that a C++
/document/ incorporates a C /document/. Incorporating the ISO C
standard does not by itself affect the _semantics_ of C++; in
areas where it is important for C++ to adopt the semantics of
some part of C, that is done using an explicit reference to the
incorporated C standard.
> In the C++11 standard, the section is:
>
> 17.5.1.5 [structure.see.also]
>
> Paragraphs labeled ?See also:? contain cross-references to the
> relevant portions of this International Standard and the ISO C
> standard, which is incorporated into this International
> Standard by reference.
Yes, AFAICT the wording of this paragraph is the same from C++98 to
C++14, except that C++11 and C++14 insert the word "International"
between "this" and "Standard".
> In C++17 (in the draft I have), it changed to:
>
> 20.4.1.5 [structure.see.also]
>
> Paragraphs labeled ?See also:? contain cross-references to
> the relevant portions of the ISO C standard.
In N4659, dated 2017-03-21, 20.4.1.5 p1 says this:
Paragraphs labeled "See also:" contain cross-references to
the relevant portions of this International Standard and the
ISO C standard.
Note by the way that section 20.4 is informative, not normative.
The same is true of the subsection containing the requisite
paragraph (that "incorporates" an ISO C standard) in C++98,
C++03, C++11, and C++14.
> I don't believe any of the following "See also" references point
> to anything in section 6 of the C standard. Most of them refer to
> other sections of the C++ standard, most of the rest refer to ISO
> C section 7, and a handful refer to section 5, which is where the
> C standard defines <limits.h> and <float.h>.
>
> As far as I know, nothing in the C++ standard depends on section 6
> of the C standard. The core language is defined from scratch.
AFAIK the same is true of C++98, C++03, C++11, and C++14, and
that is consistent with those instances of the C++ standard
having incorporated (some instance of) the ISO C standard.
> Whether the C++ standard incorporates the entire C standard or
> not, it doesn't *need* to incorporate section 6 -- and as of
> C++17, that wording was removed.
Apparently nothing *needs* to be incorporated, since in C++17
nothing was. It's an editorial choice, nothing more, and has no
effect on the C++ language being defined.
> The change was made in response to
> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/p0063r3.html
> "C++17 should refer to C11 instead of C99"
> https://github.com/cplusplus/draft commit 6b05dff5
I didn't read the document, but judging from the quoted summary
the decision to take out the "is incorporated" clause looks like
an independent change. Again, simply an editorial choice, and
that is reinforced by section 20.4 being informative rather than
normative.
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Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 12:53 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 14:19 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 14:27 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 14:33 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 15:06 +0200
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Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 17:38 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 17:51 +0200
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Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 16:20 -0700
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Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 07:13 -0700
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Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 03:50 -0700
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Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 03:00 -0700
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Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 15:03 +0000
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Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 20:20 +0000
Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 03:42 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:45 +0000
Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-11 05:26 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 14:06 +0000
Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 14:01 +0000
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Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 07:51 +0000
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Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_u7lm@bxuc3wy1g3cxiqu5j2x1_7iu.com - 2021-08-10 15:51 +0000
Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:47 +0000
Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:46 +0000
Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-10 11:20 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-10 10:27 -0400
Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-10 17:44 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_885p_dugji@l6zhsgj_v6t3dbj.tv - 2021-08-10 15:50 +0000
Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-11 08:31 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-10 10:27 -0400
Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-10 11:27 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:44 +0000
Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-08-11 16:05 +0300
Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 06:41 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-06-06 18:48 +0300
Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 14:26 -0400
Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 16:10 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 21:30 -0400
Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 18:49 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 18:51 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 22:57 -0400
Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 09:43 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-07 09:51 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:22 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-06-07 10:13 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:22 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-07 12:40 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 12:54 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-06 23:17 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 09:19 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-06-07 21:58 +0300
Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-10 11:29 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 05:38 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 15:41 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 08:18 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-05 11:58 -0400
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Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-06 11:05 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 00:27 -0700
Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-06-06 21:27 +0100
Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 00:22 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-06-07 14:53 +0000
Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 18:02 +0200
Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-06-16 21:38 +0100
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