Re: Is this really necessary

From	Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: Is this really necessary
Date	2021-08-14 02:28 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<86mtpkxtn0.fsf@linuxsc.com> (permalink)
References	(16 earlier) <86y297x7fz.fsf@linuxsc.com> <sf3cu8$1hga$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86tujuy93d.fsf@linuxsc.com> <sf3fb0$m7g$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sf3kgp$kh9$1@dont-email.me>

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Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> writes:

> 12.08.2021 18:39 mickspud@downthefarm.com kirjutas:
>
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 08:29:58 -0700
>> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> mickspud@downthefarm.com writes:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 03:50:56 -0700
>>>> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> mickspud@downthefarm.com writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 12:40:38 -0700
>>>>>> Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> right from the get go.  The developers there are real geniuses,
>>>>>>> who knows what they might have come up with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If they're the same level of genius as MS's current UI designers
>>>>>> then the internals of the windows kernel are probably a horror show.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there is only one at a time.  In addition to malloc() there is
>>>>>>> also free().  I ran a test case (on a 32-bit linux system) that
>>>>>>> allocated five large memory regions, one at a time, each of which
>>>>>>> was larger than 2 GB (and so larger than PTRDIFF_MAX in that
>>>>>>> C implementation).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which probably underlines the fact that - despite what some
>>>>>> people on here seem to think - no one uses that macro or the
>>>>>> ptrdiff_t type.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any C program that subtracts one pointer value from another
>>>>> depends on the definition of ptrdiff_t, whether the program's
>>>>> author is aware of that fact or not.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be trivial to simply use (u)int64_t on a 32 bit system
>>>>>> instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> It isn't possible to avoid depending on the definition of
>>>>> ptrdiff_t in C code that subtracts pointer values.  There is no
>>>>> way to substitute another type in such cases.
>>>>
>>>> Rubbish.  Memory addresses are simply numbers,
>>>
>>> The C standard says otherwise, which is easy to verify.
>>
>> Ah ok.  What are they then, ascii strings?
>>
>>> C implementations follow the semantic descriptions given in
>>> the C standard, which is also easy to verify.
>>
>> I don't need to verify anything, pointer values are numbers.  They
>> may have seperate parts and addressing might not be linear on some
>> archaic CPUs, but they're numbers, end of.
>
> I think what Tim wants to say is that when calculating the
> difference of pointers, the result is inherently ptrdiff_t.  If
> this is inadequate for holding the actual difference, then it's
> already too late to convert it to int64, it is already ruined.

Thank you for giving this alternate formulation.  I myself would
not have said exactly this, but indeed it might help some people
understand who would not have otherwise.

> For making >2GB differences to always work reliably in 32-bit
> program one needs to cast the pointers themselves first to an
> (u)int64 type, then subtract.  But then it is not subtraction of
> pointers any more.

I'm extremely reluctant either to use or to recommend operating
on values that result from converting pointers to integers, and
this case is no exception.  If it is necessary to deal with the
possibility of such circumstances I think there are better ways
to do that (and would rather not elaborate further just now).

> This is not obvious and not trivial.  Luckily it won't come up
> often in practice, >2GB byte arrays in 32-bit programs are rare.

Surprisingly it can come up in "garden variety" C code, and that
is worth knowing and guarding against.  Probably the easiest way
to protect against it is to limit the sizes of malloc() calls
(and other potential object allocation methods) to PTRDIFF_MAX.

Thread

Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 12:53 +0200
  Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 14:19 +0200
    Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 14:27 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 14:33 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 15:06 +0200
          Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 15:29 +0200
            Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-05 17:38 +0200
              Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 17:51 +0200
              Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-05 11:56 -0400
            Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-06-05 19:08 -0400
              Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-06 11:24 +0200
              Re: Is this really necessary Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-06-06 10:33 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 07:56 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-06-06 15:00 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 16:20 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 00:44 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 12:13 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-06-07 21:58 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:25 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-08-07 21:21 +0200
          Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 06:34 -0700
          Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-05 20:03 -0400
            Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 12:59 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_85yGi2@1ahbfz.gov - 2021-08-08 09:18 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-08 09:23 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-08 15:04 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-08 13:14 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_1dgrmf@dx58865qyrdw30lqllb.info - 2021-08-09 08:21 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-09 08:53 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-08-09 19:53 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 05:22 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 14:54 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-10 11:41 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:39 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-08-08 20:01 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_ifhov@nldls6_1kg3nl2qnwv.biz - 2021-08-09 08:19 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-09 08:55 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-09 12:16 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_HG@_0b772d8ha3yjo0xb.edu - 2021-08-09 16:23 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-09 21:50 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-09 20:57 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 01:12 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-09 21:21 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 07:13 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 05:29 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_12tus_Atff@bya886olr5o8dhu9.ac.uk - 2021-08-10 07:28 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-08-10 15:34 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 14:59 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_wPgnov999o@vv7a6.tv - 2021-08-10 15:54 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-10 11:29 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:45 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-11 07:05 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 14:18 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 14:57 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_pb9bpp7Ej@6urvt16b9fax.gov.uk - 2021-08-10 07:23 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 15:02 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 06:11 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-08-10 16:13 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-11 12:40 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-12 08:20 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 03:50 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-12 14:58 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 08:29 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-12 15:39 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-08-12 20:07 +0300
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-13 07:16 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 09:26 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-13 10:30 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 14:58 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-14 08:07 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-14 10:40 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-14 10:38 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-08-13 15:30 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-13 11:18 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 03:20 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-14 13:24 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-14 20:33 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-15 00:40 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-15 07:02 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-08-15 21:19 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-08-15 15:42 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-21 12:38 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-14 08:13 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 02:58 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-13 14:32 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 02:28 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-14 03:00 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-08-14 14:03 +0100
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-14 15:06 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-08-12 12:06 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 09:19 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-13 14:35 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-13 14:58 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-10 15:03 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-11 12:54 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 20:20 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-12 03:42 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:45 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-11 05:26 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 14:06 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-08-11 14:01 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-09 23:20 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_m7k7yilq_8@u6w.biz - 2021-08-10 07:26 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 07:51 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_ggBp1lq0@lxz.tv - 2021-08-10 07:59 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-10 12:24 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_u7lm@bxuc3wy1g3cxiqu5j2x1_7iu.com - 2021-08-10 15:51 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-08-11 05:47 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:46 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-10 11:20 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-10 10:27 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-10 17:44 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary MrSpud_885p_dugji@l6zhsgj_v6t3dbj.tv - 2021-08-10 15:50 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-08-11 08:31 +0200
                Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-10 10:27 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-08-10 11:27 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary mickspud@downthefarm.com - 2021-08-11 08:44 +0000
                Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-08-11 16:05 +0300
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-10 06:41 -0700
          Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-06-06 18:48 +0300
            Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 14:26 -0400
            Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 16:10 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 21:30 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 18:49 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-06-06 18:51 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-06 22:57 -0400
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 09:43 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-07 09:51 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:22 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-06-07 10:13 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 10:22 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-08-07 12:40 -0700
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-08-07 12:54 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-06 23:17 -0700
            Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 09:19 -0700
              Re: Is this really necessary Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-06-07 21:58 +0300
                Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-10 11:29 -0700
    Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 05:38 -0700
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 15:41 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-06-05 08:18 -0700
          Re: Is this really necessary Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-06-05 11:58 -0400
    Re: Is this really necessary MrSpook_rs7x@4hhtozmpj299zx.tv - 2021-06-05 16:00 +0000
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-05 18:16 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-06 17:34 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary MrSpook_ie@q67rq6_2ly9ut44j.org - 2021-06-06 13:55 +0000
      Re: Is this really necessary Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-06-05 19:50 +0200
        Re: Is this really necessary MrSpook_zn7@4tzq7j92.gov - 2021-06-06 13:59 +0000
    Re: Is this really necessary James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-06-05 17:42 -0400
      Re: Is this really necessary David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-06-06 11:05 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-06-07 00:27 -0700
  Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-06-06 21:27 +0100
    Re: Is this really necessary "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 00:22 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-06-07 14:53 +0000
        Re: Is this really necessary Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-06-07 18:02 +0200
      Re: Is this really necessary Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2021-06-16 21:38 +0100
    Re: Is this really necessary scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-06-07 14:52 +0000

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