Re: Forth as a polarising language

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Forth as a polarising language
References	(14 earlier) <9166513.gd9qQuK4mJ@sunwukong.fritz.box> <7xzk50m3uf.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4730306.fNe2lVOm3c@sunwukong.fritz.box> <7xehmax2rm.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <2370419.WlZCQYq3kg@sunwukong.fritz.box>
Date	2012-09-09 19:17 -0700
Message-ID	<7xzk4y8vuu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
Organization	Nightsong/Fort GNOX

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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> I usually want a good debug message like backtraces, what inputs failed, 
> and termination/going back to the prompt, and a way to use catch/throw 
> to let the program take control (e.g. print additional useful debugging 
> informations the system doesn't know about).

Yeah, logging helps, and the restart mechanism may be able to inspect
the carcass of the crashed program before restarting.  You can use
catch/throw but the idea is that if there's an unexpected throw, the
program is in some confused state and you can't really trust it, so it's
better to blow away the whole process and at least get to a known state
by restarting.

> Raising an exception to a division that is not by 0 is clearly not what 
> I would think as reasonable default.  

One can reasonably say that the ring of integers does not have division,
so dividing integers is simply an invalid operation.  I used to like the
automatic conversion approach but I no longer think it gains anything
worthwhile.

>> Supplying a manual conversion is trivial when it's what you want.
> Forth has no overloading, so you have to be precise about what you mean 
> there, too. 

Yeah, and in Forth I think I'd be happier getting an error message and
backtrace in the event of a mismatch. 

> PHP with its "convert strings to numbers and operate on them"
> is... hm... well, apparently the target audience of PHP likes that...

Yeah, and thedailywtf.com is full of PHP code for a reason...

> I'm not sure, what for?  To get the calling conventions right?

You often have to refactor large chunks of code to get data from one
place to another where there was no path before.

> The problem is that VHDL makes it rather difficult to have such a 4-bit 
> binary counter that can be used as integer, too...  I'd say, VHDL gets 
> the basics wrong.  But they follow your design principle to rather fail 
> and require an explicit conversion instead of doing it implicitely and 
> correct.

I guess for something like VHDL, I don't see how this is a big deal,
since some extra keystrokes and simulation passes are insignificant
compared to the cost of actually printing a design in silicon.

> The simulator prints an error and stops.  This was test code, so never 
> ran through the synthesis tool.  The majority of HDL code you write does 
> not end up in silicon, it only runs through a simulator.

Cool.  I want to try some HDL programming one of these days, probably
with an FPGA kit.

> At least for the b16, the program memory is significantly larger than 
> the processor ;-).  For Chucks F18, the memory is about as large as the 
> processor, and he only has 64 words of RAM + 64 words of ROM.

I wonder whether Chuck could have gotten better code density by using
6-bit instructions and making the ALU a little bigger.  The F18 die
photo is mostly memory and stacks.  Every time I want a literal "1" in
an F18 program, it burns between 1 and 2 full instruction words and it's
maddening.

Thread

Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-29 23:00 -0700
  Re: Article Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-30 01:47 -0700
    Re: Article anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-30 12:13 +0000
  Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-30 11:31 -0400
    Missing from USENET - was [Re: Article] Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> - 2012-08-30 10:37 -0500
      Missing from USENET - was [Re: Article] Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-30 10:30 -0700
  Re: Article hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2012-08-30 19:56 -0700
    Re: Article awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-08-31 12:35 +0200
  Re: Article "Greg Bailey" <greg@greenarraychips.com> - 2012-08-31 17:51 -0700
    Re: Article Whammo <sidciavic@gmail.com> - 2012-08-31 18:22 -0700
    Re: Article Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-01 01:04 -0700
      Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-02 16:18 -0700
    Re: Article Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-09-01 01:48 -0700
    Re: Article rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-02 18:38 -0400
    Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-02 16:59 -0700
    Re: Article Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-09-03 13:07 -0500
      Re: Article Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-09-03 14:25 -0700
      Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-04 17:04 -0700
        Re: Article Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 06:23 +0300
    Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 18:17 -0400
      Re: Article "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-03 12:37 -1000
        Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-04 04:48 -0400
          Re: Article Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-09-04 03:39 -0700
            Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 02:48 -0400
          Re: Article awegel@arcor.de (Alex Wegel) - 2012-09-04 13:18 +0200
            Re: Article Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-04 16:03 +0200
              Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 03:29 -0400
            Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 03:24 -0400
          Re: Article John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-04 08:12 -0700
            Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 16:06 -0400
          Re: Article Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-09-04 11:35 -0500
            Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 02:40 -0400
              Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-05 13:28 -0700
          Re: Article "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-04 08:32 -1000
            Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 02:22 -0400
              Re: Article John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 10:08 -0700
                Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 16:07 -0400
                Re: Article John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 13:39 -0700
              Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-05 13:35 -0700
            Re: Article "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-09-07 17:24 +1000
            Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-07 05:28 -0400
              Re: Article Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-07 03:28 -0700
              Re: Article Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2012-09-07 13:31 +0300
                Re: Article jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-09-07 06:33 -0700
                Re: Article Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-07 09:06 -0700
              Re: Article Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-07 09:03 -0700
        Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-04 16:45 -0700
      Re: Article John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-03 21:38 -0700
        Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 02:51 -0400
          Re: Article John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 10:49 -0700
            Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 16:20 -0400
        Re: Article "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 16:06 -0400
          Re: Article John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 13:32 -0700
            Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-05 13:50 -0700
              Re: Article John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 22:34 -0700
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-07 14:05 -0700
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-08 01:53 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-07 18:22 -0700
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-09 00:08 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-08 17:34 -0700
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-09 15:57 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-09 08:12 -0700
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-09 22:07 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-09 15:14 -0700
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-10 01:52 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-09 19:17 -0700
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-10 15:01 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-10 07:00 -0700
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-11 01:07 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-10 18:47 -0700
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-10 16:08 -1000
                Re: Forth as a polarising language anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-11 07:51 +0000
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-11 19:24 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-11 21:40 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-09 14:58 -1000
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-09 18:24 -0700
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-09-09 13:42 +0000
                Re: Forth as a polarising language mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-08 10:34 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-08 07:06 -0400
                Re: Forth as a polarising language mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-08 16:14 +0200
                DEFER (was: Forth as a polarising language) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-08 16:47 +0000
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-09 04:22 -0400
                OOP (was: Forth as a polarising language) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-08 11:38 +0000
                Re: OOP Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-08 08:19 -0400
                Re: OOP mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-08 16:41 +0200
                Re: OOP Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-09 04:24 -0400
                Re: Forth as a polarising language mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-09 12:03 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-09-09 13:20 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-10 08:33 -0400
                Re: OOP mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-08 16:54 +0200
                Re: OOP Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-09 04:12 -0400
                OOP (was: Forth as a polarising language) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-08 16:28 +0200
                Re: OOP (was: Forth as a polarising language) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-08 16:56 +0200
                Re: OOP (was: Forth as a polarising language) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-08 15:00 +0000
                Re: OOP (was: Forth as a polarising language) Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> - 2012-09-08 11:56 -0500
                Re: OOP Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-09 04:20 -0400
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-09 00:15 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-09 00:50 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-09 03:12 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-09 16:01 +0200
                Re: Forth as a polarising language "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-09 14:54 -1000
                [OT] Newsreader problem - was [Re: Forth as a polarising language] Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> - 2012-09-10 06:33 -0500
                Re: [OT] Newsreader problem - was [Re: Forth as a polarising language] Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-10 08:16 -0400
                Re: [OT] Newsreader problem - was [Re: Forth as a polarising language] Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-10 08:28 -0400
                Re: [OT] Newsreader problem - was [Re: Forth as a polarising language] anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-10 12:43 +0000
                Re: [OT] Newsreader problem - was [Re: Forth as a polarising language] Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-10 09:24 -0400
                Re: [OT] Newsreader problem - was [Re: Forth as a polarising language] Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> - 2012-09-10 08:12 -0500
                Re: [OT] Newsreader problem - was [Re: Forth as a polarising language] Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-10 09:32 -0400
                Re: [OT] Newsreader problem - was [Re: Forth as a polarising language] "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-10 07:40 -1000
                Re: [OT] Newsreader problem - was [Re: Forth as a polarising language] Richard Owlett <rowlett@pcnetinc.com> - 2012-09-10 14:42 -0500
                Re: Forth as a polarising language Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-10 07:59 -0400
                Re: Forth as a polarising language rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-10 12:27 -0400
                Re: Forth as a polarising language "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-10 07:44 -1000
                Re: Forth as a polarising language rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-10 12:30 -0400
            Re: Article "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-09-09 14:13 +1000
              Re: Article John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-11 11:26 -0700
                Re: Article "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-11 21:02 +0100
                Re: Article vandys@vsta.org - 2012-09-11 20:37 +0000
                Re: Article "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-09-12 20:01 +1000
              Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-11 16:50 -0700
                Re: Article Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-12 00:45 -0700
                Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-12 18:44 -0700
                Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-12 20:26 -0700
                Re: Article "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2012-09-12 20:47 +1000
    Re: Article Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-06 19:28 -0700
      Re: Article John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-07 09:57 -0700

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