Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.theory > #135725

Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same?

Show all headers | View raw

On Sat, 2025-11-15 at 20:36 +0000, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2025-11-15, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> wrote:
> > typedef int (*ptr)();
> > int HHH(ptr P);
> > 
> > int D()
> > {
> >    int Halt_Status = H(D);
> >    if (Halt_Status)
> >      HERE: goto HERE;
> >    return Halt_Status;
> > }
> > 
> > int main()
> > {
> >    H(D);
> > }
> > 
> > 
> > Recently, olcott constantly pushes: "...the simulated D cannot reach its own simulated "return"
> > statement..."
> > But olcott cannot answer the question (very funny): Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the
> > same? 
> 
> Mathematically, they are the same and must be.
> 
> In his C code, he has put in hacks to try to make them different.
> 
> The first H invoked from main calls a routine to allocate and initialize
> a new simulation, along with a trace buffer for execution traces.
> 
> That trace buffer is static/shared; it is allocated only once.
> 
> Hhen the trace buffer is allocated, that function returns 1 to the
> caller, and is stored in a variable called Root.
> 
> Thus in the H(D) invoked from main, Root == 1.
> 
> H(D) simulates D, which calls H again. That H(D) executes with Root == 0.
> 
> Olcott rigged is so that the Root == 1 H will perform the termination
> tests to abort the simulation loop, but Root == 0 just simulates
> unconditionally.
> 
> That makes them different functions.
> 
> By doing this, he makes it true that the D simulated by H doesn't
> terminate, whereas if you call D from main, it does terminate.

Whatever, IMO, 'same function (call)' means the entrance address of the 
function is the same. The HP does not care what the inside, the implement of 
the decider is. But of course, being an 'correct' answer, 'the function' of
the decider HP requires to be deterministic and portable, i.e. reproducible.

> The underlying mathematics doesn't support that; the expression H(D)
> denotes exactly the same computation and result wherever it appears.
> 
> If we know that H(D) produces false, we can replace all occurrences of
> it with false.

The HP has nothing to do with any math or theories. 
Proving halt decider does not exist needs some 'logic'.
Proving halt decider exists needs to build one, at least a method.

Discussion of a problem have to first setup a criteria what is correct/wrong,
otherwise pointless.
I see no one precisely define what the halting problem being discussed is.
Can you? (except the tradition one defined on Turing Machine)

Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-11-16 03:57 +0800
  Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-15 20:36 +0000
    Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-11-16 05:11 +0800
      Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-15 15:40 -0600
        Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-11-16 06:10 +0800
          Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-15 16:20 -0600
            Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-15 14:35 -0800
              Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-15 14:38 -0800
    Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-15 22:35 +0000
      Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-15 17:14 -0600
        Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-15 23:15 +0000
          Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-15 17:30 -0600
            Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-15 23:39 +0000
              Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-15 17:58 -0600
  Re: Are the H(D) in main and the H(D) in D the same? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-16 11:05 +0200

csiph-web