Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > sci.crypt > #33017

Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto?

Show all headers | View raw

William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
> On 2015-10-15, wizzofozz <oscxxxxxxxaas@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 15-10-2015 21:04, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>>> "Rich"  wrote in message news:mvn0el$nr4$1@dont-email.me...
>>> 
>>>> https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/haldermanheninger/how-is-nsa-breaking-so-much-crypto/
>>
>> I've been wondering for some time now what would happen if I dd a bunch
>> of random bytes, coming from /dev/random or maybe /dev/urand say, to a 2
>> GB file and my computer is seized by law enforcement. Would I be able to
>> convince them that the 2GB file is just some bytes dd-ed from
>> /dev/random instead of an encrypted file or cryptocontainer of some
>> sort? I wouldn't be able to comply in telling the password because there
>> is none.
> 
> And if it was a 2GB encrypted file, why would you be worried? There is no
> law yet in the USA that demands that you had over the key to an encrypted
> file.

You don't need a law. Courts usually have the inherent authority to compel
these things.

The relevant limitation here, in the U.S. at least, would the Fifth
Amendment, which prohibits the government (including, in this case, the
courts) from compelling you to testify against yourself. In one of the early
cases a few years back, however, a federal appellate court decided that
providing a password was not compelled testimony, analogizing it to
providing the key to a lock box, which according to settled law is not
proscribed by the Fifth Amendment even if the contents of the lock box would
incriminate you.

The tide is turning and that decision is probably an outlier, but AFAIK the
question has not reached the Supreme Court.

Regardless, though, the Fifth Amendment prohibition wouldn't apply if you
were given immunity or otherwise not at risk of criminal punishment. So
theoretically you could absolutely be legally jailed indefinitely if a judge
was convinced some random data was an encrypted file and you [seemingly]
refused his order to provide the password.

There are cases where people have been jailed for years for refusing to
provide evidence or obeying some other court order; jailed not as a criminal
punishment but as inducement for obeying the order. In such situations there
would have been no trial, just the belief of a judge based. You also have
little recourse. As long the judge's belief was reasonable no appellate
court would intervene; not at least until you have been sitting in jail for
an unreasonably long time. But _years_ is not on its face unreasonable.

See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._Beatty_Chadwick

Many of the most high-profile cases unsurprisingly involve divorce
proceedings, with one spouse refusing to provide access to off-shore bank
accounts or other investments beyond the power of the court to access
directly. Once a spouse has sat in jail for months or years, you really must
wonder whether somebody could be that spiteful. Note that obeying the order
wouldn't invite criminal punishment, so that's not the reason. Rather, in
such cases the person is either being spiteful, hoping to outlast the
patience of the spouse or court, or simply because the money doesn't
actually exist.

That said, unless the random file just happened to contain the header of a
known encryption format, or if there were evidence of encryption software on
your machine that could produce that file, you probably wouldn't have a
problem. So, you know, don't install TrueCrypt if you don't want to spend
years in jail ;) Especially if you're rich and thinking of divorcing.

Back to sci.crypt | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-10-15 01:44 +0000
  Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-10-15 12:04 -0700
    Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? wizzofozz <oscxxxxxxxaas@gmail.com> - 2015-10-15 22:24 +0200
      Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2015-10-15 23:13 +0000
        Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? <william@wilbur.25thandClement.com> - 2015-10-16 18:47 -0700
      Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-16 10:09 +0000
    Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-10-15 22:38 +0000
    Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2015-10-15 23:11 +0000
      Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Jakob Bohm <jb-usenet@wisemo.com> - 2015-10-16 02:08 +0200
        Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-10-16 00:25 +0000
          Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Jakob Bohm <jb-usenet@wisemo.com> - 2015-10-16 04:04 +0200
  Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> - 2015-10-16 11:53 -0500
    Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-10-16 17:54 +0000
      Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? <william@wilbur.25thandClement.com> - 2015-10-16 19:14 -0700
    Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Jakob Bohm <jb-usenet@wisemo.com> - 2015-10-16 20:18 +0200
    Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? kg <kristiag+news@math.ntnu.no> - 2015-10-16 20:59 +0000
      Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> - 2015-10-16 23:19 -0500
        Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? kg <kristiag+news@math.ntnu.no> - 2015-10-18 11:37 +0000
          Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Jeffrey Goldberg <nobody@goldmark.org> - 2015-10-19 00:20 -0500
  Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2015-10-18 22:53 +0000
    Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-10-19 01:18 +0000
  Re: How is NSA breaking so much crypto? Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2015-10-30 08:45 +0100

csiph-web