Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #211715
| From | usenet@only.tnx (Questor) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | alt.folklore.computers |
| Subject | Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? |
| Organization | random access |
| Message-ID | <5ed7eb01.11713392@news.dslextreme.com> (permalink) |
| References | (4 earlier) <ragrus$30jf$2@gal.iecc.com> <rautav$b9f$1@z-news.wcss.wroc.pl> <ravpve$ja5$1@dont-email.me> <5ed69e60.6633748@news.dslextreme.com> <1EyBG.557272$Xk.555691@fx46.iad> |
| Date | 2020-06-03 18:25 +0000 |
On Tue, 02 Jun 2020 20:28:45 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes: >>On Sun, 31 May 2020 09:30:37 +0100, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote: >> >>>Well the VAX suffers the same. Lets see:- >>> >>>1. User Types Character >>>2. VAX receives character. >>>3. VMS looks and sees its for a running application which is swapped. >>>4. It pages in the interupt handler. >>>5. It passes the character to application >>>6. The program looks at the character. Sees its a letter "F" >>>7. The program decides it needs to echo the character so asks the OS to >>>send a "P" to the terminal >>>8. The program goes to sleep >>>9. VMS pages it out to make room for another program that needs to >>>process a leetter "U" ..... >>> >>>So on a heavily loaded system thats two disk IO's for each character >>>typed. I am sure there must be a better way.... >> >>I will confess ignorance on how VAX/VMS processed characters, but I can't >>imagine it was this bad. > >No, it's not that bad. > >Inbound characters were stored in a typeahead buffer[*] >in the kernel by the hardware driver. > >When an application requested terminal input, it would be >retrieved from the typeahead buffer. > >To be fair, it's been forty years and I don't recall >exactly if VMS had the equivalent of unix raw mode; >but they must have because, well, EDT on a VT-100 >(complete with GOLD key). > > >> I strongly suspect it had a "line mode" input model >>similar to the PDP-10 that was used by most programs. I very much doubt that >>the processor was interrupted on every character typed by every user. I could >>be wrong though; VMS certainly made some other big mistakes. > >Do you have any examples to share? In old age first thing to go is memory. I forget what the second thing is. I have to offer the following caveats. I don't remember a lot of the details. One person's feature is another one's mistake. The time period would be the mid-1980s. I think making the page size only 512 bytes was a big mistake and wasn't forward looking, given the trends of increasingly larger and increasingly less expensive memory. VMS lacked some useful queue options that the TOPS-10/20 systems had. (For the uninitiated, the queueing system is how one submitted and controlled print requests, card or paper tape punching, and batch jobs, a form of automated script processing.) While apparently complete, the help system was cumbersome to use. I found it difficult and ineffective as a means to quickly learning the big picture about a program or a command. Getting into the weeds, there was some function in the Data Access Protocol (DAP was a specification for doing remote file access operations over DECnet) which in VMS DECnet included an implicit rewind of a file, while the TOPS-10/20 implementation essentially left the file at EOF, because a rewind was not explicitly in the spec. Okay, that's not a big one, but it demonstrates a certain inter-group dynamic. DEC was making a big bet on homogenizing their product lines with VAX/VMS machines while deeemphasizing their "legacy" offerings. The VMS group was getting a big chunk of company resources and it seemed to result in the attitude of, "we've decided to do it this way, and we don't have to care much about what other groups think because we're VMS." I think the majority of VAX/VMS people came into it from the PDP-11 world, so to some extent they were hobbled by small system thinking even as they built bigger and bigger VAXes. >[*] I got my first job doing systems programming on VAXen thanks > to the typeahead buffer. By default VMS 2.x took a memory > dump whenever it shut down or rebooted. The memory dump file > was able to be read (and analyzed with the analyzer tool) by > any user. It very conveniently formatted and displayed the > contents of the typeahead buffer. As the most recent input > on the console was usually the system manager logging in to > invoke the shutdown, the system manager password could usually > be found in one of the typeahead buffers in the dump file. Heh heh heh. > I showed that to the system manager and was offered a job, right > after he changed the dump file permissions. Later, a student had > discovered that the 'debug' utility could be used on programs > 'install'ed with elevated privileges (such as change mode to kernel) > and it was trivially easy to inject object code to subvert system > security. Needed a VMS patch from DEC to fix that one, but not > until after the student who discovered it caused a considerable > amount of damage. TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 also had a facility where unpriviledged users could run certain system programs which could perform priviledged operations. These were often vectors for security intrusions. TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 also allowed a small subset of operating system commands to be executed without logging in -- for example, one could see the system status or view the print queue. This created another "attack surface," to use the current phrasing.
Back to alt.folklore.computers | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
CR or LF? Gareth Evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-12 11:59 +0100
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-04-12 20:35 +0000
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-04-12 16:52 -0400
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-04-13 22:16 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Gareth Evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-12 22:48 +0100
Re: CR or LF? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-04-12 19:44 -0300
Re: CR or LF? Douglas Miller <durgadas311@gmail.com> - 2020-04-12 16:38 -0700
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-04-13 19:03 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Douglas Miller <durgadas311@gmail.com> - 2020-04-13 14:12 -0700
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-04-13 22:30 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Douglas Miller <durgadas311@gmail.com> - 2020-04-13 16:00 -0700
Re: CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-04-13 21:22 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-04-14 09:40 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-04-13 17:56 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-04-13 03:32 +0000
Re: CR or LF? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-04-14 05:26 +0200
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-04-12 22:11 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-04-13 17:15 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-13 16:40 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-13 17:29 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Douglas Miller <durgadas311@gmail.com> - 2020-04-13 18:18 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-04-16 13:40 +0000
Re: CR or LF? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-04-17 11:00 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-04-18 09:56 +0000
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-04-13 21:37 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-04-14 14:51 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-04-14 07:45 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Gareth Evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-14 11:38 +0100
Re: CR or LF? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-04-14 15:28 +0200
Re: CR or LF? nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2020-04-14 15:27 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Gareth Evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-14 17:37 +0100
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-04-14 15:00 -0700
Re: CR or LF? fred_weigel@hotmail.com - 2020-05-22 17:09 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-05-23 03:37 -0700
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-05-23 08:36 -0400
Re: CR or LF? robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-05-23 05:38 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-05-23 08:58 -0400
Re: base64, not really CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-05-23 18:42 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-05-23 19:28 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-05-23 20:27 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-05-23 14:30 -0700
Re: CR or LF? "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@invalid.org> - 2020-05-24 10:21 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-05-24 06:06 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-05-24 10:45 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-05-24 07:03 -0700
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-05-24 10:43 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> - 2020-06-05 22:22 +0100
Re: CR or LF? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-04-14 17:49 -0300
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-14 06:29 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-04-18 08:42 +0100
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-18 11:33 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-04-18 19:11 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 18:32 -0400
Re: CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-04-19 01:55 +0000
Re: CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-04-18 20:03 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-04-18 22:44 +0100
Re: CR or LF? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-19 08:46 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-04-19 10:58 +0100
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-04-18 22:22 +0000
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-04-18 18:55 -0400
re: CRLF Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-18 18:03 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-19 08:55 +0000
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 08:16 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 09:19 -0400
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 10:24 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-19 10:47 -0700
Re: CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-04-20 16:02 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> - 2020-05-05 16:32 +0100
Re: CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-04-19 14:54 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-04-19 12:19 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-19 10:47 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-04-19 09:26 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2020-04-20 17:40 +0800
Re: CR or LF? Fred Smith <fred@thejanitor.corp> - 2020-04-20 23:05 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-21 06:07 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2020-04-22 15:08 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-22 20:22 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-04-22 19:40 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-04-22 23:23 -0700
Re: CR or LF? robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-04-23 03:01 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-04-19 10:47 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-04-13 19:54 +0100
Re: CR or LF? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-22 11:18 -0700
Re: CR or LF? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-04-14 05:24 +0200
Re: CR or LF? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-04-18 08:44 +0100
Re: CR or LF? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-04-18 12:08 +0200
Re: CR or LF? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-04-18 12:02 +0100
Re: CR or LF? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2020-04-18 21:50 +0200
Re: CR or LF? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-04-18 03:40 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-05-23 03:40 -0700
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-05-23 08:38 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-05-23 08:02 -0700
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-05-23 11:07 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-05-23 11:27 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-05-23 12:27 -0700
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-05-23 18:21 -0400
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-05-23 20:10 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-05-24 08:32 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-05-24 16:25 +0000
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-05-24 18:29 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-05-25 02:00 +0000
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-05-25 16:28 +0000
Re: CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-26 14:06 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-05-26 15:14 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-05-25 10:55 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-05-25 15:04 -0400
Re: CR or LF? robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-05-24 21:32 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-05-25 15:44 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-05-25 16:32 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-05-26 00:39 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-31 00:21 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 21:59 -0400
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2020-05-31 09:30 +0100
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2020-05-31 15:48 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-05-31 13:49 -0700
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-06-01 16:28 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-06-01 18:48 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-06-01 16:27 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-06-02 19:12 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-06-02 20:28 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2020-06-03 09:13 +0100
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Fred Smith <fred@thejanitor.corp> - 2020-06-03 08:33 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-06-03 16:20 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-06-03 18:25 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2020-06-03 17:20 -0400
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-06-04 15:20 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-06-04 19:51 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-06-04 16:26 -0700
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-06-05 18:46 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-06-05 12:26 -0700
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-06-05 13:28 -0700
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2020-06-08 01:03 +0000
Re: PDP-11s, was mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-06-06 00:08 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-06-04 17:41 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-06-04 16:26 -0700
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-06-04 17:04 -0700
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-06-04 15:18 +0000
Re: memory sizes, mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-06-04 20:53 +0000
Re: memory sizes, mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-06-04 22:22 +0000
Re: memory sizes, mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-06-04 19:27 -0400
Re: memory sizes, mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-06-05 16:10 +0000
Re: memory sizes, mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-06-05 10:03 -0700
Re: memory sizes, mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-06-05 20:29 +0000
Re: memory sizes, mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-06-05 18:47 +0000
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-06-04 16:26 -0700
Re: mainframe I/O, was CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-06-01 16:32 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-05-25 10:55 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2020-05-25 15:04 -1000
Re: CR or LF? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-05-26 12:56 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-05-26 14:15 -0700
Re: CR or LF? robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-05-25 21:41 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-05-28 11:50 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-05-28 11:56 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-05-30 14:49 +0000
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-05-30 17:39 +0000
Re: CR or LF? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-05-30 19:07 +0000
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-05-30 19:32 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-05-30 13:10 -0700
Re: CR or LF? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-05-30 20:43 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 15:50 -0400
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 16:30 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 19:42 -0400
Re: CR or LF? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-05-30 22:17 -0400
Re: CR or LF? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-05-31 09:45 +0100
Re: CR or LF? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-05-25 18:37 +0000
Re: CR or LF? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-05-25 19:52 +0000
Re: CR or LF? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-05-25 07:37 +0000
Re: CR or LF? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2020-08-22 11:15 -0700
Re: CR or LF? Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2020-08-22 18:55 -0700
csiph-web