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Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge

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On 29 Jun 2026 at 18:43:45 BST, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

> On 29/06/2026 17:36, Roger Hayter wrote:
>> On 29 Jun 2026 at 16:09:12 BST, "JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:
>>> On 29/06/2026 09:10 AM, Roger Hayter wrote:
>>>> "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:
>>> 
>>> [ ... ]
>>> 
>>>>> Anyway, according to Mr Goodge, he was probably barking up the wrong
>>>>> tree.  If the developer had been paying for the gas, at whatever rate it
>>>>> did, it belonged to the developer not the gas company, and it was the
>>>>> developer he was depriving and should have been contacting.  Whatever,
>>>>> it seems he just rode his apparent good fortune and may not, even now,
>>>>> have paid for the gas he used.
>>>> 
>>>> If you actually want to pursue your quixotic, indeed somewhat silly, argument
>>>> then you need to establish who was the owner of the gas that Roland used. The
>>>> gas remains the property of the wholesale gas supplier until the utility
>>>> company adopts Roland's supply and pays the wholesaler for it. But Roland is
>>>> not depriving the wholesaler of his gas (or value thereof), the utility
>>>> company is by failing to record Roland's usage and pay for it. So according to
>>>> your argument the utility company is the thief. Roland cannot be stealing from
>>>> the utility company, as it has never possessed the gas.
>>> 
>>> I'mn not batting for the "Roland is a thief" side (far from it), but it
>>> IS possible to steal something without knowing (or caring) who the owner is.
>> 
>> Indeed, I was making the case that the gas supplier was negligently defrauding
>> the wholesaler by failing to pay the wholesaler for their customer's use (as
>> well as carelessly failing to collect what was owed to them by Roland) and
>> Roland was not responsible for the wholesaler's loss.
> 
> Where does all this obfuscatory nonsense come from?  We don't know who
> paid whom or how much, except for Mr Perry who paid nothing.  According
> to Mr Goodge, the likelihood and working assumption is that the property
> developer *was* paying the gas company for the gas being used, albeit at
> a bulk rate.
> 
>> The gas supplier made
>> *no loss* as they never acknowledged their customer's use of the wholesaler's
>> gas (and the latter therefore never knew about it)
> 
> Whoever's gas it was of course made a loss.  Mr Perry wasn't paying for it.
> 
>> and Roland's obligation
>> was to the utility company not the wholesaler.
> 
> His responsibility was actually not to use it without paying, regardless
> of who owned the gas and regardless of any difficulties.
> 
>> It is not that he took gas he
>> did not know the owner of, he took gas he (rightly) believed to be the utility
>> company's job to account for, and the latter utility suffered no loss as they
>> never paid for or owned the gas.
> 
> You seem to be just making this up as you go along.  We now apparently,
> and without precedent, have a gas supplier, a wholesaler and a utility
> company involved.  Are they different or the same?  And where does the
> property developer fit in?

From the context "supplier" and "wholesaler" are synonyms in my explanation,
and it is fairly well known that the utilities who sell gas and electricity
are not the same people who arrange the distribution network (although some
companies may do both through separate subsidiaries). And the distributors
only know they have supplied gas to an address if the utility who reads the
meter tells them. Though I expect they try to detect leaks.



> 
>> Any "dishonesty", more likely negligence, was
>> that of the utility company.
> 
> None of that entitled Mr Perry just to take it for free.  And that's the
> bottom line.


-- 
Roger Hayter

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In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <bily@anon.com> - 2026-06-29 07:19 +0100
  Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 08:44 +0100
    Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 08:10 +0000
      Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 09:33 +0100
        Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-29 08:52 +0000
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 12:09 +0100
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-29 11:32 +0000
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 12:53 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-29 12:35 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 14:50 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-29 12:38 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 14:47 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-29 14:17 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 18:12 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-29 21:27 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-29 22:50 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 23:57 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-06-30 17:40 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:57 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-06-30 18:57 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-01 16:58 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-01 16:14 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-01 22:04 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-01 22:25 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-02 08:33 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-02 09:07 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-02 13:41 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-02 13:41 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-02 16:13 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-02 16:26 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-02 16:06 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-07-03 13:52 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-03 12:58 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-04 12:00 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-04 13:16 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-04 12:55 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-04 14:23 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-07-01 20:09 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-01 22:05 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 22:11 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 22:08 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-02 08:35 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> - 2026-07-03 14:53 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-04 12:02 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> - 2026-07-04 12:28 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com> - 2026-07-04 14:16 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 20:55 +0100
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-29 12:49 +0100
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 12:56 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-29 20:10 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 21:31 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 08:09 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 09:26 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 10:29 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 10:33 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 10:52 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 11:56 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 13:35 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 14:24 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 14:47 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 15:27 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 16:00 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:01 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-30 15:26 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:10 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-30 17:26 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 19:23 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 21:12 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:21 +0100
        Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 09:44 +0000
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 11:19 +0100
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 10:51 +0000
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 12:01 +0100
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> - 2026-06-30 13:21 +0100
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 12:34 +0000
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 14:33 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 14:05 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 15:21 +0100
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-06-30 14:53 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 14:02 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-06-30 15:24 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 15:08 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-06-30 16:40 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-30 15:54 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:34 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 20:30 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 19:56 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:49 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 22:33 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 07:55 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 16:29 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:55 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-06-30 21:06 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 21:34 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 23:00 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2026-07-01 07:54 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-07-01 08:27 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 08:53 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-07-01 09:20 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 09:51 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-07-01 08:54 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-07-01 13:35 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-07-01 14:01 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> - 2026-07-01 14:53 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 16:00 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-07-01 15:20 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> - 2026-07-02 07:48 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-07-01 07:43 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 09:02 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:56 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-07-01 07:46 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 09:05 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:32 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 17:20 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 15:41 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 16:55 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 20:50 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:52 +0100
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> - 2026-06-30 19:26 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-30 20:16 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-06-30 19:54 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:42 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:31 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-06-30 21:35 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-30 22:48 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> - 2026-07-01 07:48 +0000
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 08:56 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> - 2026-07-01 13:30 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-07-01 15:39 +0100
                Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> - 2026-07-02 09:44 +0100
      Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> - 2026-06-29 16:09 +0100
        Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 16:36 +0000
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 18:43 +0100
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 18:51 +0000
              Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 21:14 +0100
    Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> - 2026-06-29 10:15 +0100
      Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 12:43 +0100
    Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> - 2026-06-29 16:06 +0100
      Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 16:44 +0000
        Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 16:45 +0000
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 18:03 +0100
        Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 18:00 +0100
          Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> - 2026-06-29 18:33 +0000
            Re: In anticipation of Normans' next whinge Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> - 2026-06-29 20:52 +0100

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