Re: Is there any place to talk about language features?

Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Date	2016-10-07 00:32 -0700
References	(20 earlier) <31cf30f6-1b7a-4a27-bc79-44866f8473e5@googlegroups.com> <e5m4odFmb1oU1@mid.individual.net> <b83ecb7f-2eb5-44a7-ab6c-719c776e8f17@googlegroups.com> <4a66da60-0345-41f3-8f3d-6e9e1243e752@googlegroups.com> <0ef78ab4-9cbb-465d-98d2-9d4aef7354ba@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID	<57bbd999-fa67-4fc6-a355-8fb930220cae@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: Is there any place to talk about language features?
From	Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com>

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On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 5:01:08 PM UTC+1, supe...@casperkitty.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 9:34:08 AM UTC-5, gwowen wrote:
> > Honestly Malcolm, do you *ever* even try and find counter-examples to your generalisations before posting them as facts?
> 
> I wouldn't consider that much of a counter-example, given that such
> a function could easily be specified as never throwing exceptions but
> instead return NaN for every variable that does not have a unique 
> solution.
> While the comparison semantics of NaN are IMHO poorly-conceived, 
> being able to propagate a record of computational errors without
> disrupting program flow is a much cleaner approach than having to 
> check for errors at every step or handle exceptions.
> 
> Unfortunately, the C Standard doesn't allow integer types enough room to
> behave likewise (supporting 64-bit NaN efficiently on a 32-bit machine
> would require that all bit patterns with 0x800000000 as the upper 32 bits
> be considered NaN, but 64-bit signed integer types are only allowed to
> have at most one "weird" value), since doing so would make many kinds of
> calculation safer and more efficient.
> 
Overflow is an issue. Whilst you can check every integer calculation
for overflow, it's tedious. However overflow doesn't behave reliably
or consistently in C.

Thinking about this, the real answer is to say that our data is always
real. Most numerical data represents measurements of analogue quanties
in the real world (length, weight, time, soundwave pressure, 
light intensity etc). Where it's not (amounts of money, shoe sizes)
we can usually still represent it as a double. For amounts of money,
hold the cents as an integer, of course.

So what are integers? The answer is that they are graph edges. We
special case the graph which is a flat list, and represent it as
an array in memory. Integers are then used to represent the edges
in that graph. 

Think of it that way, and the overflow problem disappears.

Thread

Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 09:35 -0700
  Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 09:39 -0700
    Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 09:46 -0700
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-28 17:53 +0100
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-09-28 21:21 +0200
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-28 20:36 +0100
        Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 13:55 -0700
          Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:02 -0700
          Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 10:03 +1300
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:13 -0700
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 10:22 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-03 08:47 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-03 07:44 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 04:56 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-03 13:18 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-03 12:43 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-10-03 21:43 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2016-10-03 22:28 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 04:51 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-03 13:10 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 05:48 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-03 14:03 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-03 14:24 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 07:07 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-03 19:16 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 07:16 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 07:45 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 07:57 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-03 08:21 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 05:31 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 06:43 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-03 15:08 +0200
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:22 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 15:16 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 16:08 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 16:57 -0700
          Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 14:19 -0700
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:50 -0700
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 17:03 -0700
              Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-29 01:08 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 17:33 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2016-09-29 01:02 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 01:39 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-09-29 00:48 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-09-29 11:59 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-01 08:09 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 12:14 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-01 09:07 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 13:53 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 22:13 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-01 09:36 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-10-01 13:04 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-30 14:20 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-09-30 22:30 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-10-02 07:30 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-01 01:51 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-01 10:31 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-01 23:22 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-01 06:15 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-01 15:28 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-01 10:07 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-01 19:52 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-02 20:38 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-02 03:37 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-03 08:35 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-02 15:17 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-03 18:29 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 01:09 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-04 08:21 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-03 13:12 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-03 14:34 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-04 00:47 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-10-04 07:49 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-04 07:50 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-04 08:57 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-04 10:42 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 15:47 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-04 20:58 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 18:14 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 02:15 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-05 22:44 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 03:12 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 15:38 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 19:50 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 16:25 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 21:19 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 18:11 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-10-06 06:38 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-06 00:36 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-10-06 07:33 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-06 09:00 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-07 00:32 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 05:05 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-07 08:13 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-07 00:20 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 17:01 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-10-05 12:45 -0500
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-05 11:12 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 03:15 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-05 14:41 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 08:01 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 08:41 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 10:29 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 12:29 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-05 11:08 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-10-05 14:35 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-05 18:15 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 10:38 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-05 19:14 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 11:56 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 11:57 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-05 12:18 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-05 21:49 +0200
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 13:07 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-10-05 16:23 -0400
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-06 14:26 +0200
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-05 13:56 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-10-06 14:17 +0100
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-10-06 15:53 +0200
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-10-06 09:12 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-06 11:28 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 15:31 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 15:32 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-10-05 19:43 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-10-06 16:05 +1300
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2016-10-02 07:24 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-30 16:17 -0700
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-10-01 09:39 +0000
                Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-10-01 14:11 -0700
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 07:47 -0700
            Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-09-29 10:25 -0700
  Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-09-28 12:59 -0400
    Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-09-28 18:30 +0100
      Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-28 12:10 -0700
    Re: Is there any place to talk about language features? James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 20:20 +0100

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