Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > sci.physics > #590431

Precipitation (was: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense)

Show all headers | View raw

James McGinn wrote:

> […] Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>> James McGinn wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 10:43:32 AM UTC-7, Thomas 'PointedEars'
>> > Lahn wrote:
>> >> You have omitted the most important part of the story.  For a gas to
>> >> condense to drops that results in clouds, it does not suffice that its
>> >> temperature is reduced; there has to be something *solid* that it can
>> >> *condense on*.
>> > 
>> > Actually, this supposition has never been thoroughly tested.
>> 
>> You are wrong.
> 
> I am right.  You failed to present any reproducible experimental evidence.

First of all, you have made the claim above, so it is up to you to 
substantiate it.

Second, a quick search at <http://scholar.google.com/> lists several papers 
that present that kind of evidence:

<https://scholar.google.ch/scholar?q=%22condensation+nucleus%22%7C%22condensation+nuclei%22&btnG=&hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C5>

One of the most cited of them is

Petters, M. D., & Kreidenweis, S. M. (2007). A single parameter 
representation of hygroscopic growth and cloud condensation nucleus 
activity. Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics, 7(8), 1961-1971.

which has the virtue of being available for free at

<http://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/7/1961/2007/acp-7-1961-2007.pdf>

If you read it, you will realize that cloud condensation nuclei (CCN) are a 
part of the basic knowledge in meteorology/physics by now *because* 
Findeisen et al. *did* those experiments.

>> 
>> ,-
>> 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wegener%E2%80%93Bergeron%E2%80%93Findeisen_process>
>> | 
>> | […]
>> | In the late 1930s, German meteorologist Walter Findeisen extended and
>> | refined Bergeron's work through both theoretical and experimental work.
>> 
>> It is tested and confirmed every time cloud seeding works.
> 
> Anecdotal evidence is worthless/misleading.

Findeisen was just the first of many to do experimental work on it in the 
last 80 years.  To doubt CCNs is therefore akin to doubting the 
applicability of Newton’s laws to the non-relativistic case.

But it should be easy to find out.  Catch raindrops and let them evaporate 
in a clean, isolated Petri dish.  If there is anything solid left besides 
the Petri dish, then those are the dust particles commonly called CCNs.

> You don't have proof.

Yes, I have.

> You just have more consensus-based propaganda.

If you cared to read what is being presented to you, you would be forced to 
acknowledge that your misconceptions are just that.

>> > So it is just a conjecture or superstition.
>> Ex falso quodlibet.
> 
> Proof?

Are you asking me to prove the correctness of “ex falso quodlibet”?

>> > There is no gaseous H2O in earth's atmosphere.  This notion is just
>> > superstition.
>> If so, where do the forms of precipitation (e.g., rain, hail, snow, dew;
>> commonly known as being the result of condensation/freezing of
>> atmospheric water) come from?
> 
> Obviously they come from water droplets that are too small to be seen. 
> Right?

No, for water droplets, i.e. liquid water, to exist, water has to have a 
temperature above the melting point of water.
 
> How was this not obvious?

Even small droplets of water have to observe the laws of nature.  AISB, at 
the temperatures and pressures *measured* in clouds, water is no longer 
liquid.

Naturally, as wet warm air rises and cools, first droplets of water form (2) 
which freeze, on which more water can freeze, and so on.  So you have first 
droplets (which is more likely on dust particles), then ice pellets and 
bullets with frozen-on droplets [(3) to (5)], or snowflakes, if the 
conditions are right (6):

  time ------------------------------------------------------------------>

  (1)  . . .  (2)  . . .  (3)  . . .  (4)  . . .  (5)  o . o  (6)  * . *
      . . . .     . . . .     . o o .     . * * .     . * * .     . * * .
     . . . . .   . . o . .   . o * o .   . * * * .   o * * * o   * * * * *
      . . . .     . . . .     . o o .     . * * .     . * * .     . * * .
       . . .        . .        . . .       . . .       o . o       * . *
 
  . – gaseous water (water vapor; diffused into other gases of air)
  o – liquid water
  * – solid water (water ice)
   __
  |PE

States (2) to (6) can change back to states (1) to (5) as the particles’ 
masses become too great for them to be held in suspension by the rising air, 
and they fall down.  AISB, as for clouds, what kind of precipitation, if 
any, reaches the ground depends on the temperature of the air below the 
cloud, i.e. how (much) the particle is melting/evaporating.  (2) will be 
rain, (3) and (4) can be ice pellets or hail, (5) can be graupel, and (6) 
will be snow.  On the ground, (2) will be dew, and (6) could evolve to 
diamond dust.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precipitation>

>> If so, where do frostings in winter (commonly known as being the result
>> of resublimation of atmospheric water) come from?
> 
> Ditto.

“Water droplets that are too small to be seen” could be an explanation for 
frostings.  However, for water to be liquid instead of gaseous, there have 
to be several water molecules bound by hydrogen bonds:

   H                     H
    \                   /
     O ---- H   H ---- O
    /        \ /        \
   H          O          H
              :
              :
              H
               \          
     H   H      O ---- H   H
      \ /      /        \ /
       O ---- H          O ---- ...

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_bond>

We have the ability to observe hydrogen atoms with microscopes now (since 
the scanning tunneling microscope, IBM Research, 1981 [1]), and we *know* 
from such observations that resublimation, the instantaneous change from the 
gaseous to the solid phase, takes place instead.
_____
[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_tunneling_microscope>

>> If so, where does the liquid water of lakes and puddles go to on warm
>> days (commonly known as the result of evaporation of water)?
> 
> evaporate (which is liquid suspended in air)

Instead, evaporation is the partial and gradual change of a substance, on 
its edges only, from its liquid to its gaseous phase below its boiling 
point:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point>
<http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_01.html#Ch1-S2>

> This is obvious stuff.

What you are claiming is obviously *wrong*.

Have you done yet the experiments that I suggested?  If not, why not?

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

Back to sci.physics | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 10:13 -0700
  Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Michael J. Strickland <michael06582@comcast.net> - 2016-07-06 01:33 -0400
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 23:03 -0700
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 09:59 -0700
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 11:15 -0700
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 18:33 -0700
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense pcardinale@volcanomail.com - 2016-07-06 12:02 -0700
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 14:25 -0700
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-06 14:40 -0500
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-07 05:51 -0700
        ah, cOOl noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-08 10:51 -0700
          Re: ah, cOOl noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-08 16:07 -0700
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-07 11:22 -0700
        Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-07-07 18:20 -0700
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-08 13:51 -0500
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-19 19:45 +0200
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-19 19:43 +0200
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-19 19:58 +0200
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 21:48 +0200
        Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-19 22:29 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 15:33 -0500
            Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-19 22:40 +0200
              Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 23:24 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 23:15 +0200
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 09:08 -0700
        Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-21 03:27 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-22 20:58 -0700
            Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 07:55 +0200
              Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 09:21 -0700
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 12:19 -0700
        Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-21 04:58 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-21 05:12 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 07:22 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 14:00 -0700
            Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-07-21 17:46 -0700
              Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-22 08:10 -0700
            Precipitation (was: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 07:32 +0200
              Re: Precipitation (was: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 08:33 -0700
                Re: Precipitation Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 21:25 +0200
                Re: Precipitation James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 12:38 -0700
                Re: Precipitation Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 22:01 +0200
                Re: Precipitation James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 18:09 -0700
                Re: Precipitation Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-24 03:53 +0200
                Re: Precipitation James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-24 06:17 -0700
                Re: Precipitation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-23 22:41 -0500
                Re: Precipitation James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-24 09:14 -0700
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-22 08:21 -0700
            Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 07:33 +0200
              Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 08:35 -0700
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-22 12:16 -0700
            Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 07:52 +0200
              Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 09:20 -0700
                Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 21:45 +0200
                Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 18:06 -0700
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-24 11:10 -0700
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-19 18:05 -0500
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 11:58 -0700
        Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 15:13 -0700
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-20 18:12 -0500
  Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 07:14 -0700
  Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-09-01 15:29 -0700

csiph-web