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Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense

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James McGinn wrote:

> On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 10:43:32 AM UTC-7, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
> wrote:
>> You have omitted the most important part of the story.  For a gas to
>> condense to drops that results in clouds, it does not suffice that its
>> temperature is reduced; there has to be something *solid* that it can
>> *condense on*.
> 
> Actually, this supposition has never been thoroughly tested.

You are wrong.

,-
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wegener%E2%80%93Bergeron%E2%80%93Findeisen_process>
| 
| […]
| In the late 1930s, German meteorologist Walter Findeisen extended and 
| refined Bergeron's work through both theoretical and experimental work.
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It is tested and confirmed every time cloud seeding works.

> So it is just a conjecture or superstition.

Ex falso quodlibet.
 
> There is no gaseous H2O in earth's atmosphere.  This notion is just
> superstition.

If so, where do the forms of precipitation (e.g., rain, hail, snow, dew; 
commonly known as being the result of condensation/freezing of atmospheric 
water) come from?

If so, where do frostings in winter (commonly known as being the result of 
resublimation of atmospheric water) come from?

If so, where does the liquid water of lakes and puddles go to on warm days 
(commonly known as the result of evaporation of water)?

If so, why are there *always* more clouds over regions with rivers and 
forests, over lakes, seas and oceans than over dry land, in particular over 
deserts?

(More practical:) If so, where does the additional ice in the freezer come 
from if you leave it open for too long (commonly known as being the result 
of resublimation of atmospheric water)?


You can do a simple experiment to test your assumption:

Build an aquarium (any container which, provably, was dry and when closed up 
does let any phase of water pass, suffices), fill it with warm air from the 
atmosphere (in the nothern hemisphere it is summer now, so this is easy to 
do), and close it up.  Bring it into a cooler place, for example put it into 
a fridge (that is the fastest way to test).  Observe what happens.

I predict that the longer you wait and the lower the temperature, the more 
droplets of liquid you will observe on the *inside* of whatever adequate 
container you chose.  As you examine the liquid, you will find that has all 
the properties of water.  As you have ascertained before that the container 
did not let any phase of water pass, where does the liquid water on the 
inside come from?

Answer: It MUST have come from the *air* that you let in before.  
Conclusion: There is gaseous water, water vapour, in the air.

Surely you will accept as an axiom that Earth’s atmosphere consists of air.

Corollary: There *is* gaseous water in Earth’s atmosphere.  Which disproves 
your claim. ∎

>> > Droplets at the top of the cloud (coldest) fall downward with a very
>> > small terminal velocity and usually evaporate from air frictional
>> > heating before falling very far.
>> 
>> Instead, those "droplets" at the top of a cloud are actually condensation
>> nuclei surrounded by then-*frozen* *solid* water *ice*.
> 
> No, they are droplets.  Nuclei is not necessary.

This statement is inconsistent with your claim above.

Either there *is* gaseous water in the atmosphere, only then it can condense 
to droplets, freeze to ice (which they have to: we *know* how cold it is 
above as we *measured* it numerous times with weather balloons – it is below 
the melting point of water, below 0 °C), on which more water can freeze and 
so on.

Or there is *no* gaseous water in the atmosphere, then it does not matter if 
condensation nuclei are dust particles or ice because where there is no 
water, nothing can condense.  For we *know* that the temperatures where 
there are clouds are at minimum −57 °C, not low enough, and that the 
pressures are at maximum 232 mbar, not high enough, for the other main gases 
in the atmosphere to condensate:

<http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=troposphere+vs.+tropopause+vs.
+stratosphere>

<http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=nitrogen+phase+diagram>
[as an example to show that the conditions are best for condensation at high 
pressure and low temperature. so let us test the phase of the three main 
atmospheric gases there:]

<http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?dataset=&i=atmosphere+composition>

<http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?dataset=&i=nitrogen+phase+at+-57+%C2%B0C+and+232+mbar>
<http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?dataset=&i=oxygen+phase+at+-57+%C2%B0C+and+232+mbar>
<http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?dataset=&i=water+phase+at+-57+%C2%B0C+and+232+mbar>)

Again, please trim your quotes.

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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Thread

Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 10:13 -0700
  Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Michael J. Strickland <michael06582@comcast.net> - 2016-07-06 01:33 -0400
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 23:03 -0700
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 09:59 -0700
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 11:15 -0700
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 18:33 -0700
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense pcardinale@volcanomail.com - 2016-07-06 12:02 -0700
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 14:25 -0700
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-06 14:40 -0500
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-07 05:51 -0700
        ah, cOOl noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-08 10:51 -0700
          Re: ah, cOOl noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-08 16:07 -0700
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-07 11:22 -0700
        Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-07-07 18:20 -0700
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-08 13:51 -0500
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-19 19:45 +0200
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-19 19:43 +0200
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-19 19:58 +0200
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 21:48 +0200
        Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-19 22:29 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 15:33 -0500
            Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-19 22:40 +0200
              Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 23:24 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 23:15 +0200
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 09:08 -0700
        Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-21 03:27 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-22 20:58 -0700
            Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 07:55 +0200
              Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 09:21 -0700
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 12:19 -0700
        Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-21 04:58 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-21 05:12 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 07:22 +0200
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 14:00 -0700
            Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense pnalsing@gmail.com - 2016-07-21 17:46 -0700
              Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-22 08:10 -0700
            Precipitation (was: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 07:32 +0200
              Re: Precipitation (was: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense) James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 08:33 -0700
                Re: Precipitation Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 21:25 +0200
                Re: Precipitation James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 12:38 -0700
                Re: Precipitation Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 22:01 +0200
                Re: Precipitation James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 18:09 -0700
                Re: Precipitation Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-24 03:53 +0200
                Re: Precipitation James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-24 06:17 -0700
                Re: Precipitation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-23 22:41 -0500
                Re: Precipitation James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-24 09:14 -0700
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-22 08:21 -0700
            Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 07:33 +0200
              Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 08:35 -0700
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-22 12:16 -0700
            Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 07:52 +0200
              Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 09:20 -0700
                Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-07-23 21:45 +0200
                Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-23 18:06 -0700
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-24 11:10 -0700
    Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-19 18:05 -0500
      Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 11:58 -0700
        Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 15:13 -0700
          Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-07-20 18:12 -0500
  Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 07:14 -0700
  Re: Sometimes people believe things that are nonsense James McGinn <jimmcginn9@gmail.com> - 2016-09-01 15:29 -0700

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