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Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no?

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Mark Wills wrote:
> I'd be very surprised if any startup these days was just flat-out
> balls-to-the-wall coding. In the 90's maybe. The web is such a hostile
> place, and since your web presence *is* your business, it has to be
> treated as mission critical "must not fail". That would include
> mitigation strategies to keep your business online in the event of DOS
> attacks etc.

The question however is if you by not coding until the middle of the 
project ever get to understand what your problems are?  I'm especially 
against too much up-front documentation: You think you got everything 
right, but you never tried...

The proof of the pudding is its eating.  A secure payment transaction 
site should be concerned about security from day one.  But the message 
we get here is that you get security by not coding, but doing other 
things.  I'm not convinced.  Security is the most difficult to test, as 
it requires a malicious attacker to pass through.  It's not just a bug, 
it is an intentional malicious attack.

So, yes, you should think about security.  You should think about 
deliberately attacking your own product to see if there are weaknesses.  
But to do so, you need a prototype!  You can't do that based on specs.  
There is a constant illusion on programming, it's the illusion of 
control.

What I smell here is the sweat of fear.  Your buggy code can blow up an 
oil platform or cause a company to lose it's net worth on the stock 
exchange during the lunch break.  The latter actually did happen 
recently.  Because it is so worrysome, you postpone the actual project 
start to later, and be "very carefully" about your requirements etc.

And after months and months of specifying, you end up with the most 
expensive bugs you can get: wrong specs.

Agile development isn't less safe.  It's just that you must specify a 
confidence level when to deploy the product.  This seems to be the 
problem, agile development is fast, and after a few rounds, the thing 
looks quite promising.  Hey, it isn't ready!  It's just the first demo!

Management often doesn't understand that kind of thing.  In a climate of 
fear, people start sandbagging, hoping that the management will be more 
patient that way.  But management is not *that* stupid, either, they 
will discover your first prototypes, and say "Hey, you were just 
sandbagging.  The program already runs!  Great, let's deploy it in 
production yesterday!"

Documentation and proper requirements is not stupid.  Thinking about how 
to implement your program is not stupid; taking breaks in between to let 
your brain work on the problems and suddenly find a solution is neither.

But fear of coding is stupid.  Deploying a waterfall model will result 
in something like "we now use only 20% for the actual coding".  Hm, but 
our process now takes 10 times as long as the agile one, and if you let 
agile programs ripe a little longer, they become stable, too.  Maybe the 
waterfall model isn't really the good thing, it's having more time which 
is the good thing.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 13:20 -0700
  Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-22 17:31 -0700
  Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 06:25 +0300
    Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 08:41 -0700
      Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-25 03:46 -0400
        Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 10:03 -0700
      Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-25 04:51 -0700
        Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-26 06:03 -0400
        Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 20:19 -0700
          Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 04:38 -0700
            Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 12:37 -0700
              Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Unknown <dog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-29 18:53 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-29 12:30 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-29 14:37 -0500
              Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Unknown <dog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-29 18:53 +0000
              Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Unknown <dog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-08 22:14 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-09 01:12 +0200
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-08 18:04 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-09 15:01 -1000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-09 18:57 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-09 18:47 -1000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-10 01:19 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-10 08:18 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-10 16:21 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-10 18:41 +0100
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-11 00:37 +0200
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-11 19:07 +0100
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-12 00:32 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-10 09:09 -0400
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-10 06:49 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-10 15:17 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or  no? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-10 14:17 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or  no? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-14 11:54 -0400
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-15 02:11 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-18 12:11 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-09-14 03:22 -0700
        Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 20:13 -0700
    Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 20:16 -0700
      Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-30 17:44 -1000

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