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Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ?

Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Date 2015-08-20 14:24 -0700
References (22 earlier) <73527a5a-4659-40a2-85e4-1596f1c91987@googlegroups.com> <53bfa438-7754-4331-8ac1-9b52be360c0f@googlegroups.com> <4884755a-1b9a-44b4-ab57-c8306956d6df@googlegroups.com> <b2f8ed35-eaab-45d6-9745-4c7dd3923a5e@googlegroups.com> <e76857c2-c6f1-415b-8801-5581d3d9fedd@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID <41854bde-e9a1-4b93-8efd-752c32dcaea0@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ?
From Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com>

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El jueves, 20 de agosto de 2015, 11:52:42 (UTC-4), Gary Harnagel  escribió:
> On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 9:06:30 AM UTC-6, Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato wrote:
> >
> > El jueves, 20 de agosto de 2015, 8:53:26 (UTC-4), Gary Harnagel  escribió:
> > >
> > > On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 6:18:45 AM UTC-6, Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato wrote:
> > > >
> > > > El miércoles, 19 de agosto de 2015, 19:09:07 (UTC-4), Gary Harnagel  escribió:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 3:30:06 PM UTC-6, Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Time is NOT a coordinate in the 1905 text, where we find only
> > > > > > Euclidean geometry,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Completely false.  Einstein derives the Lorentz transform which is
> > > > > DEFINITELY NOT Euclidean.
> > > > >
> > > > Your very right, the transform that 1905 Einstein derives in
> > > > Section 3 of his June 30 paper is NOT Euclidean, because it
> > > > includes the managing of time that is DEFINITELY NOT an Euclidean
> > > > entity. However, time is NOT a coordinate in the 1905 text, where
> > > > that denotation refers only to the Euclidean space. Let us analyze
> > > > the Section 3 where the transform is derived:
> > > > 
> > > > [ Section 3. Theory of the Transformation of Co-ordinates and Times
> > > > from a Stationary System to another System in Uniform Motion of
> > > > Translation Relatively to the Former ]
> > > > 
> > > > Read the first sentence:
> > > > 
> > > > [Let us in "stationary" space take two systems of co-ordinates, i.e.
> > > > two systems,  each of three rigid material lines,  perpendicular to
> > > > one another,  and issuing from a point. ]
> > > > 
> > > > Since the beginning, it is completely clear that time is NOT a
> > > > co-ordinate, a denotation only used for the Euclidean space with
> > > > its three Cartesian co-ordinates.
> > > 
> > > The definition of a coordinate is "equal in rank, quality, or significance."
> > > If we plan to meet each other, we must specify a position x, y, z, but
> > > designating a time is of equal significance or we will not meet.
> > > 
> > > Furthermore, Einstein presented time on an equal basis with the spatial
> > > coordinates in describing a spherical wavefront of light as
> > > 
> > > x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = (c*t)^2
> > > 
> > > > > > Cartesian coordinates, Newtonian equations
> > > > > 
> > > > > Nope.  The Galilean transform is Newtonian and the LT is not.  The 1905
> > > > > text REFUTES the GT.
> > > > >
> > > > We are in total agreement. I am not the one pretending here that the
> > > > 1905 Einstein time definition is related with the Galilean Transform.
> > > > However, remember that 1905 Einstein denotes "stationary system"
> > > > (unique type of entity where he defines a time for it) a system of
> > > > co-ordinates in which the equations of Newtonian mechanics hold good
> > > > (beginning of Section 1).
> > > 
> > > But his "stationary system" is NOT unique as ANY inertial frame meets
> > > the criteria.
> > >
> > Well, if we take into account that any Newtonian center of mass
> > system (corresponding to any adequate body set, like the Solar
> > system) meets the criteria with the equations of Newtonian
> > mechanics holding good in it, we can take for granted that the
> > 1905 Einstein "stationary system" is NOT unique.
> 
> Your provisos are not necessary conditions for an inertial frame.  E's
> first postulate defines such a frame without introducing extraneous
> nonsense like "center of mass."
>
I say nothing about an "inertial frame", but about a 1905 Einstein
"stationary system".

E's first postulate as it appears in the Introduction:

[ the same laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid for all
frames of reference for which the equations of mechanics hold good ]

What you denote as "extraneous nonsense" appears since Corollary IV
of 1686 Newtonian mechanics (1686NM), derived from his three Axioms
or Laws of Motion, denoted then "center of gravity".  Remember that
1905 Einstein defines "stationary system" as a system of coordinates
in which the equations of Newtonian mechanics hold good. 
 
> > What I am now not so sure is that all the inertial frames you
> > mention meets the 1905 criteria. You must take into account tha
> > the today inertial frame concept (including the equivalence of
> > all of them) does not exist yet in 1905. What do you think about?
> > 
> > RVHG (Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato)
> 
> I disagree.  The Galilean transform equations define inertial frames since
> Newton's laws apply in each of them.  Whether or not you call them inertial
> frames is immaterial.  A rose by any other name ....
>
You write very clear in a previous post (with my total agreement):

Gary: [Nope.  The Galilean transform is Newtonian and the LT is not.
The 1905 text REFUTES the GT. ]

You also write very clear in a posterior post (with my alert about
the use of the "inertial frame" concept in 1905 when it does not
exist yet):

Gary: [ But his "stationary system" is NOT unique as ANY inertial
frame meets the criteria. ]

And now are you the one saying that GT defines inertial frames? How
can you use a REFUTED GT to define an "inertial frame", a concept
that you seem identifying with the 1905 Einstein "stationary system"?
 
> The GT is a subset of generalized inertial frames wherein space and time
> are linear and homogeneous.  In general,
> 
> x' = G*(x + H*t)
> t' = A*(t + B*x)
> 
> Applying Galilean relativity (i.e., x'/t' = -v when x/t = 0 and x'/t' = -v
> when x/t = 0 and for all t), the general transform becomes
> 
> x' = G*(x - v*t)
> t' = G*(t + B*x)
> 
> Assuming universal time results in the GT.  Assuming a speed limit instead
> of universal time results in the LT.  These are purely kinematic transforms
> and do not rely on Newton's law of motion.  Dynamics is a different story
> which E addressed later in his paper.
>
All the theory expressed in your last equations was developed AFTER
the radical changes introduced by 1907 Minkowski, particularly the
space-time concept, not representing then the original 1905 Einstein
theory that I usually denote as 1905R, to distinguish it from the
different Special Relativity (SR) of our days.

In 1905R, 1686NM continue holding good, including the gravitational
equations, what permit the development of a 1905R Gravity different
from General Relativity (GR), but  much simpler than it. 1905R
relativistic gravitational equations exist  for the general
gravitational n-body problem, applied already to the principal
bodies of the Solar system with extraordinary accuracy better than
10E-11.

A very surprising derivation from 1905R is the
gravitational/inertial mass ratio equal to the 1905R relativistic
gamma factor, with an inertial mass that is equal to a variable
rest mass that measures potential energy. Some GR effects are
already explained with 1905R, as the gravitational red shift and
Mercury's perihelion one, including the GPS atomic clocks time rate
changes due to changes on velocity and gravitational potential.

RVHG (Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato)
 
> Gary

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Thread

QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-14 12:21 -0700
  Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-14 13:33 -0700
    Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-14 22:44 +0200
      Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-14 15:22 -0700
        Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-15 07:38 +0200
          Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-17 03:41 -0700
            Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-17 17:22 +0200
              Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-17 09:10 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Jason Burchett <jasb@h3ipotal.org> - 2015-08-17 16:19 +0000
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-17 18:37 +0200
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-17 12:21 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-17 22:40 +0200
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-18 10:35 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-18 20:27 +0200
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-18 13:10 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-18 22:44 +0200
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-19 07:07 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-19 17:46 +0200
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-19 10:41 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-19 20:00 +0200
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-19 12:21 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? shuba <tim@sh.uba> - 2015-08-19 19:48 +0000
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-19 22:32 +0200
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-19 14:30 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-19 16:09 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-20 05:18 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-20 05:53 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-20 08:06 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-20 08:52 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-20 14:24 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-08-20 18:32 -0400
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-20 19:56 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-21 10:35 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-21 11:39 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-08-21 15:32 -0500
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-21 22:36 +0200
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-21 23:02 +0200
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 14:07 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 16:58 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-08-27 10:49 -0500
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 13:05 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 14:01 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 04:27 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 22:03 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-08-29 18:10 -0500
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 15:47 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-04 12:44 -0500
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? shuba <tim@sh.uba> - 2015-09-04 19:52 +0000
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 15:15 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? shuba <tim@sh.uba> - 2015-09-05 01:15 +0000
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-07 09:49 -0500
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 08:47 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-09-07 12:31 -0500
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? "Lleyton H. Bellucci" <lleyb@stratospheree.org> - 2015-09-07 19:19 +0000
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato <rvalls162@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 12:48 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 15:48 -0700
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-08-20 20:25 -0400
                Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-08-20 17:45 +0200
  Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-14 14:40 -0700
    Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-15 23:23 -0700
      Re: QU'EST-CE QUE L'ESPACE-TEMPS ? Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-16 01:17 -0700

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