Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements)

Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Date	2020-02-22 05:22 -0800
References	(10 earlier) <87zhdrlqns.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <r1pe93$1cco$1@gioia.aioe.org> <slrnr44lcg.km3.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid> <r20tk8$pt0$1@dont-email.me> <86zhdbcaoo.fsf@linuxsc.com>
Message-ID	<3e4ee590-e882-4442-9b5c-e8a07ff16dd8@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements)
From	James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu>

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On Saturday, February 22, 2020 at 3:01:53 AM UTC-5, Tim Rentsch wrote:
> James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
> 
> > On 2/11/20 2:19 AM, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >> The thing I have against unit tests is that, for me, writing tests
> >> means I don't read the code as carefully. ...
> >
> > That makes just as much sense, for exactly the same reason, as "I don't
> > like washing my hands because it means that I don't feel a need to avoid
> > people who are coughing and sneezing, and then I end up catching their
> > colds."
> 
> Whether the original statement is true or not, the analogy
> is flawed.

Of course you feel that way - I don't think you've ever seen an analogy
that you liked. That's not a particularly useful response. A useful
response would identify the flaw, not merely claim that it exists. To
help you identify the flaw, here's the analogy, laid out in full:

1. There's a possible problem that you want to mitigate (delivering
defective code/catching a cold).

2. There's many different measures you can take to mitigate that
problem, two of which are A(unit tests/washing my hands regularly) and
B(reading the code carefully/avoiding contact with people displaying
cold symptoms).

3. The measures are at least somewhat independent, in the sense that
taking both measures will do a significantly better job of mitigating
the problem than using either method alone.

4. The argument is "I don't like taking measure A because doing so
encourages me to be lax about taking measure B".

5. The argument is defective in both cases, because in both cases the
best solution would be to take both measure A and measure B, without
skimping on either one. If you're not willing to do so, that's a
problem with you, not a problem with either remedy.

Would you please identify by number which of those descriptions doesn't
apply well to one or the other of the two problems? Also, please
identify which problem(s) you don't think it applies to, and provide an
explanation of why you feel that way. Please don't bother responding if
you're not willing to provide that explanation - such a response would
be just as useless as the one I'm responding to.

Thread

Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-01-31 23:46 +0300
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-01-31 23:54 +0300
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-31 19:13 -0600
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 07:52 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-02-01 00:06 +0300
    Re: Coding style for small if statements mathog <dmathog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-28 10:20 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2020-01-31 16:28 -0500
  Re: Coding style for small if statements donalhambra@gmail.com - 2020-02-01 04:55 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-01 17:16 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-02 11:03 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-03 02:20 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 05:17 +0100
        Re: Coding style for small if statements chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 04:07 -0800
          Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 12:59 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 20:54 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2020-02-01 16:44 +0000
  Re: Coding style for small if statements already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2020-02-02 04:40 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-02 15:47 +0100
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-03 23:56 +0000
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 05:34 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-16 16:17 +0000
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 08:28 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 21:52 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 22:07 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 22:22 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 22:25 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-05 02:35 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-04 20:20 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-05 01:04 -0500
            Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-05 01:05 -0500
  Re: Coding style for small if statements John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2020-02-05 12:50 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-05 23:36 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2020-02-06 15:01 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-02-06 15:43 -0800
          Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-07 11:02 +0100
            Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-07 15:24 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-07 23:03 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-07 23:59 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-08 00:16 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-08 02:26 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-02-08 17:07 -0600
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-08 23:17 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-02-08 18:32 -0600
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-02-09 09:32 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 07:10 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-07 01:26 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-07 11:30 +0100
            Re: Coding style for small if statements chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-07 05:36 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-07 23:36 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-08 17:20 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 02:07 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-09 13:01 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-09 13:26 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 15:53 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-09 17:03 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 15:35 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-02-09 18:07 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:17 +0000
                Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-11 07:19 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-02-10 23:40 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-12 12:24 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-11 11:30 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-02-11 09:41 -0700
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-12 08:12 -0500
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-14 21:18 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 00:01 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-22 05:22 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-02 07:57 -0700
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-02 08:28 -0700
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) jadill33@gmail.com - 2020-02-12 07:56 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-12 08:57 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-14 21:31 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) jadill33@gmail.com - 2020-02-14 14:10 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-15 03:06 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-09 19:45 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:50 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-09 22:51 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 01:39 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 09:55 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-10 11:07 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 12:48 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-10 13:13 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 15:15 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 15:46 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-09 18:18 -0800
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 09:12 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 14:51 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 16:19 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-09 21:00 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:29 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-09 17:14 -0800
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:15 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-09 18:43 -0500
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 01:25 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 01:19 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 05:43 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-16 14:01 +0000
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 08:34 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2020-02-07 15:25 +0100
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-02-07 07:22 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2020-02-14 15:21 +0300
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-14 13:35 +0000
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2020-02-14 14:43 +0100
          Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-15 12:08 +0100
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-20 10:10 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-20 19:58 +0100
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 05:55 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-07 15:26 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-07 17:47 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements jadill33@gmail.com - 2020-02-10 07:09 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 06:30 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-16 16:14 +0100
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-16 16:40 +0000
            Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-16 17:48 +0100
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-02-16 17:14 -0600
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-03-30 00:27 -0700
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2020-02-16 18:39 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-16 20:37 +0000
            Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-17 09:09 +0100
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-02-17 05:32 -0800
              Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-17 18:07 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-17 23:48 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-02-17 20:40 -0500
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-23 10:14 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2020-02-23 20:16 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-03-29 18:56 -0700
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2020-03-30 06:07 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-03-30 06:45 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-03-30 10:50 +0200
                Re: Coding style for small if statements gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2020-03-30 13:04 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-03-30 06:17 -0700
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-04 14:09 -0700
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-18 02:09 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2020-02-10 01:47 +0000
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-02-12 17:54 +0100
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-20 07:18 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-02-29 03:30 -0800

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