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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #164214

Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks'

From Morten Reistad <first@last,name.invalid>
Newsgroups alt.folklore.computers
Subject Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks'
Date 2016-06-01 08:34 +0200
Organization Me, Myself and I
Message-ID <39c22d-2s6.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> (permalink)
References <slrnnkd8c2.e8s.dnied@dnied-at-tiscali.it> <nikroa0tl6@news6.newsguy.com> <fij12d-kv5.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> <nil9ac02298@news3.newsguy.com>

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In article <nil9ac02298@news3.newsguy.com>,
Charlie Gibbs  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2016-05-31, Morten Reistad <first@last.name.imvalid> wrote:
>
>> In article <nikroa0tl6@news6.newsguy.com>,
>> Charlie Gibbs  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2016-05-31, Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <nikfar11g7k@news4.newsguy.com>,
>>>> Charlie Gibbs  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2016-05-31, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I see people dismiss shortwave radios "because the sound is bad".
>>>>>
>>>>> Ironically, some of these people think that cell phones are the
>>>>> cat's meow, even though they often introduce phase distortion
>>>>> that (to me) makes them almost unlistenable.
>>>>
>>>> So you can hear phase clearly? You know that this is pretty
>>>> rare for humans?
>>>
>>> It's just a guess, actually.  I hear an effect that sounds like
>>> two signals beating against each other, sort of like two notes
>>> that are close enough in frequency to each other that you can
>>> hear the difference tone as they heterodyne (or, if they're
>>> very close in frequency, a slow "wow" as they go in and out
>>> of phase).  Whether the cell phone artifacts are phasing or
>>> something else is open to discussion - but whatever it is,
>>> I don't like it.
>>
>> Can it be the GSM symbols that pass by? Aroynd 60 per 
>> second; like playing out short tidbits of audio. GSM will
>> degrade to this when bandwith gets bad.
>
>That doesn't seem like it.  The sound is continuously bad,
>and varying in a very irritating way.  Maybe it's some sort
>of sampling artifact, or a product of aliasing.

The GSM codec analyses the sound for speech phonemes, and encodes
these as a ~1200(must look it up for exact figures) bps stream. This
is just machine speech as it comes out in the other end. It should
be barely legible for slow and clear speech; but you will not hear
who is speaking. These flow at ~60 per second (every 20 ms plus some
extras). 

Then the difference, both in normal sound and in the fourier-space
(frequencies) are added for a total of 13.600 bps. 

These are separate data streams, and the network protects the
symbols a lot more than they protect the differences. The idea is
that the inevitable dropouts will spound a lot better if the
symbols get through and you apply the last fourier-correction to them.

Very simplified explanation, but it gets the gist of it. And I
took the numbers from memory.

But it makes the total sound image _very_ weird. But 2/3rds
of humanity have gotten used to this by now.

>>>> I have seend the quality of sound channels go bad, and it
>>>> gets worse for every decade. In the 1970s we were all upping
>>>> the sound quality with the HiFi systems that were better
>>>> every year. This leveled off with the CD in the 1980s, and
>>>> reached a peak somewhere in the late 1980s. 
>>>
>>> Some of us were upping the sound quality in the '70s.  But not
>>> all.  The rest were going to cassettes, despite the inferior
>>> sound quality, because for them convenience trumps everything.
>>
>> The cassettes were ALSO upping audio quality, just not as
>> much.
>
>Yes, I remember those Nakamichi decks.  But generally, cassettes
>were a big step down from existing vinyl records and reel-to-reel
>tapes.  Compared to a 1/4-inch 4-track tape running at 7 1/2
>inches per second, a cassette has an inherent 9dB disadvantage
>in signal-to-noise ratio - Dolby just made up the difference.
>And getting decent high-frequency response out of cassettes
>wasn't easy.
>
>But a lot of people didn't care as long as they could turn it up loud.

And Loud, LOUD, **LOUD** without breaking the bank was a new thing 
with transistorised components (really, thyristors) in the two last amp 
stages ca 1972. 

This made a **LOUD** playback that didn't distort much available to
the general public.

-- mrr

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[BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Dario Niedermann <dnied@tiscali.it> - 2016-05-26 09:10 +0200
  Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-26 00:28 -0700
    Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-05-26 12:40 -0400
  Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Dave Pitts <dpitts@cozx.com> - 2016-05-26 07:42 -0600
    Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 09:00 -0500
      Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-26 07:09 -0700
      Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-05-26 07:28 -0700
    Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-05-26 12:43 -0400
      Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-05-26 14:01 -0500
    Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-26 16:22 -0400
  Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2016-05-27 13:08 +0000
    Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Dave Pitts <dpitts@cozx.com> - 2016-05-27 07:43 -0600
      Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-05-27 15:58 +0100
    Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2016-05-27 17:13 +0300
      Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-27 16:36 +0100
    Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Stephen Wolstenholme <steve@easynn.com> - 2016-05-27 15:48 +0100
      Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-05-27 12:47 -0400
        Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-28 15:18 -0400
          Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-05-28 22:48 -0400
            Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-05-29 09:55 +0000
            Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-29 07:26 -0400
        Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2016-05-30 12:48 -0400
          Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-05-30 13:37 -0400
            Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-05-30 13:35 -0500
              Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-05-30 23:26 -0400
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-30 23:34 -0400
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' roger.ivie@gmail.com - 2016-05-30 21:23 -0700
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-31 07:11 -0700
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-05-31 10:46 -0400
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-31 21:28 +0200
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 11:37 -0500
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-31 16:49 +0000
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-31 21:35 +0200
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-31 20:21 +0000
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last.name.imvalid> - 2016-06-01 01:33 +0200
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 00:13 +0000
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last,name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 08:34 +0200
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:32 -0400
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Stephen Wolstenholme <steve@easynn.com> - 2016-06-01 12:01 +0100
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:41 +0000
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 21:39 +0200
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 16:46 -0400
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-02 12:10 +0200
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 13:12 +0200
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-01 13:07 -0700
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 16:54 -0400
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 07:15 +0100
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-01 10:20 -0700
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-01 14:26 -0400
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-01 14:03 -0700
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 18:09 -0500
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-02 15:23 -0400
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 14:31 -0500
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-02 20:44 +0000
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-02 16:01 -0700
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 18:28 -0500
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-01 13:52 +0000
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 16:19 +0200
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-01 15:35 +0100
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-01 17:42 +0000
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-31 14:16 -0700
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-31 16:09 -0400
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-31 20:24 +0000
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-06-01 07:14 +0000
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-05-31 17:41 -0700
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-31 19:24 -0700
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 10:45 +0200
              Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-05-31 07:03 +0100
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-05-31 10:16 -0500
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-05-31 15:51 +0000
              Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-05-31 07:23 +0000
                Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-05-31 16:49 +0000
            Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-05-31 17:36 -0700
          Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2016-05-31 07:16 +0000
  Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-05-28 13:11 -0700
    Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-28 16:50 -0400
    Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' mausg@mail.com - 2016-05-29 10:08 +0000
      Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-29 15:04 +0200
        Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-29 16:41 -0400
        Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-05-31 17:29 -0700
          Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-01 10:24 +0200
    Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-29 07:26 -0400
      Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-05-29 07:11 -0500
        Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-05-29 15:09 +0200
        Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-29 16:41 -0400
      Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-05-31 17:26 -0700
  Re: [BBC] US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-04 22:15 -0500

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