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Groups > comp.theory > #135035

Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz code Deviation

From Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz code Deviation
Date 2025-11-04 22:33 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20251104141933.432@kylheku.com> (permalink)
References (13 earlier) <10ebi7i$39l5v$1@dont-email.me> <20251103181346.107@kylheku.com> <10ebqbv$3bp3f$1@dont-email.me> <20251103195844.661@kylheku.com> <10edtr1$3vp53$1@dont-email.me>

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On 2025-11-04, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/3/2025 10:28 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> On 2025-11-04, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/3/2025 8:22 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>> On 2025-11-04, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> What step(s) of D come next in C?
>>>>
>>>> When I posted a detailed symbolic statement-by-statememnt trace using C
>>>> syntax several days ago,
>>> You did not stick with an execution trace of D and only D
>>> showing that and how D reaches its own "return" statement
>>> final halt state when simulated and only simulated by H.
>> 
>> It was a warm-up exercise. The example H wasn't the aborting H.
>> 
>> You made no remarks on the format: is that a good way or bad
>> way to trace executions of just C.
>> 
>> I invented some fictitious API's into the interpreter that H could use
>> for setting up and stepping a simulation; you made no comments about it.
>> 
>> The first thing D does when entered is call H(D), so we need an H
>> to trace concretely.
>> 
>> How about this minimal viable H:
>> 
>>    #include <interpret.h>  // C interpreter's own API
>> 
>>    bool H(fptr P)
>>    {
>>       interp *s = interp_init(P);
>> 
>>       for (int i = 0; i < 3; i++) {
>>          if (interp_step(s))
>>             return true;
>>       }
>> 
>>       return false;
>>    }
>> 
>> H initializes an interpreter for its argument P. Then it applies a very
>> simple abort logic: it steps the interpreter state three times. If
>> during those three steps, P terminates, it returns true. Otherwise it
>> assumes P is nonterminating and returns false.
>> 
>> (Pretend that more complicated abort criteria are there.)
>> 
>> The interpreter API consists of primitives built into the system, so
>> it isn't traced.
>> 
>> So then we have D:
>> 
>>    void D(void)
>>    {
>>       if (H(D)) { for (;;); }
>>       return;
>>    }
>> 
>> Let's trace H(D). We indicate the simulation levels from 0,
>> step numbers from 1 within each level, with a bit of indentation
>> to tell apart the levels:
>> 
>> Level Step  Code                                 Vars
>> 
>> 0     1     if (H(D)) ...
>> 0     2     H(D)
>> 0     3     interp *s = interp_init(P); ...      P = D; s = #<garbage>
>> 0     4     for (int i = 0; i < 3 i++) ...       P = D; s = #<interp0>; i = 0
>> 0     5     if (interp_step(s)) ...              P = D; s = #<interp0>; i = 0
>>   1     1      if (H(D)) ...
>> 0     6     for (int i = 0; i < 3 i++) ...       P = D; s = #<interp0>; i = 1
>> 0     7     if (interp_step(s)) ...              P = D; s = #<interp0>; i = 0
>>   1     2      H(D)
>> 0     7     for (int i = 0; i < 3 i++) ...       P = D; s = #<interp0>; i = 2
>> 0     7     if (interp_step(s)) ...              P = D; s = #<interp0>; i = 0
>>   1     3     interp *s = interp_init(P); ...      P = D; s = #<garbage>
>> 0     8     for (int i = 0; i < 3 i++) ...       P = D; s = #<interp0>; i = 3
>> 0     9     return false;                        P = D; s = #<interp0>; i = 3
>> 
>> OK, so after those 3 steps, H(D) has returned false. The D simulation
>> proceeded far enough to hit the "interp_init(P)" calculation, to create
>> the next simulation level.
>> 
>
> I don't think so
> i == 0        reaches if (interp_step(s))
> i == 1        reaches if (interp_step(s))
> i == 2        reaches if (interp_step(s))
> i == 3  NEVER reaches if (interp_step(s))
> Then bool H(fptr P) returns false.

Yes, but then the #<interp0> simulation still exists, and the machine
continues it:

Previously we have this ending of H(D):

 0     8     for (int i = 0; i < 3 i++) ...       P = D; s = #<interp0>; i = 3
 0     9     return false;                        P = D; s = #<interp0>; i = 3

Then #<interp0> is picked up in order to validate H(D)'s claim. This
is continuing D inside the simulated H(D): so the level is 1:
Notice that "1  3" already appeared previously; I only repeated it
for informational purposes, to indicate where the simulation had left
off:

 1     3     interp *s = interp_init(P); ...      P = D; s = #<garbage>

Then first step of the resumption of #<interp0> is actually "1  4":
the variable has been initialized by the above to a new simulation #<interp1>
and we get into the 0 to 2 for loop:

 1     4     for (int i = 0; i < 3 i++) ...       P = D; s = #<interp1>; i = 0
 1     5     if (interp_step(s)) ...              P = D; s = #<interp1>; i = 0
  2     1      if (H(D)) ...
 1     6     for (int i = 0; i < 3 i++) ...       P = D; s = #<interp1>; i = 1
 1     7     if (interp_step(s)) ...              P = D; s = #<interp1>; i = 0
  2     2      H(D)
 1     7     for (int i = 0; i < 3 i++) ...       P = D; s = #<interp1>; i = 2
 1     7     if (interp_step(s)) ...              P = D; s = #<interp1>; i = 0
  2     3     interp *s = interp_init(P); ...      P = D; s = #<garbage>
 1     8     for (int i = 0; i < 3 i++) ...       P = D; s = #<interp1>; i = 3
 1     9     return false;                        P = D; s = #<interp1>; i = 3
 1     10    if (#<false>) { for(;;); }
 1     11    return;

So we get to "1 9  return false;" which is an exact mirror of the
previuos "0 9 return false;".

Same step number, 9, but one level down!

Since this is the simulated H(D): the "return false;" goes back to the
simulated D where the if (H(D)) statement now has evaluated its 
expression to false:  "1  10   if (#<false>) { ... }".  So it skips
the loop and goes to "1 11 return;":   D terminates!

In order to believe that D does not terminate we have to believe irrational
ideas like that when the outer H returns false, D is "totally dead". (How can
something "totally dead' be nonterminating?)

You've always correctly claimed that discontinuing the simulation is
not the same as halting. But the flipside of that is that it is not
the same as a non-halting, either!

The arbitrary cessation of a simulation isn't a determiner of whether
the simulated subject is halting or not.

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

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Thread

Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 09:49 -0500
  Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-30 20:11 +0000
    Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 15:25 -0500
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-30 20:42 +0000
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 16:05 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-30 21:15 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 16:49 -0500
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 20:13 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 21:14 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 19:15 -0700
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:33 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 21:45 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:49 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 21:54 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:56 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 21:59 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 23:00 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:03 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 23:04 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:15 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 23:19 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:25 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 23:28 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:49 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 00:00 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 23:06 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 07:22 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 06:55 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 08:08 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 07:30 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 08:33 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 09:02 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 10:15 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 09:24 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 10:28 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 12:36 -0700
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 12:35 -0700
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 04:55 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 06:57 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 17:17 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 17:20 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Mike never did get this "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 12:32 -0700
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 00:22 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 21:07 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:10 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 21:17 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 19:18 -0700
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:35 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 21:48 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:50 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 21:56 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:58 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:01 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 23:03 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:05 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 23:06 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:16 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 23:20 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:27 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 23:30 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:59 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 03:35 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 03:29 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 22:47 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 04:39 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 07:27 -0500
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 17:32 -0500
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 17:01 -0700
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2025-10-31 00:57 +0000
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-30 16:44 -0400
  Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-31 13:28 +0200
    Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 07:44 -0500
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-01 10:42 +0200
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 08:25 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 09:51 -0400
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 20:12 +0000
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 15:18 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 20:53 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 16:08 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-11-01 21:12 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 13:59 -0700
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-02 14:17 +0200
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-02 07:29 -0600
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-02 22:26 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-03 20:43 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-03 14:47 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-03 22:40 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-03 16:56 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-04 00:24 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-03 18:43 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-04 02:22 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-03 21:02 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-04 04:28 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 13:52 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-04 20:20 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-11-04 21:04 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-11-05 20:04 +0800
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-05 09:50 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-05 17:51 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-05 12:18 -0800
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-05 19:29 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-05 20:43 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-07 16:03 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-07 15:59 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-07 10:13 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-07 16:41 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-07 10:44 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure !!! olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-07 10:27 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-11-05 14:52 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-05 09:54 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-11-05 16:52 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure on one point olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-05 11:10 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure on one point "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-05 12:11 -0800
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-04 20:10 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 14:35 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-11-04 20:51 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 14:55 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-04 21:43 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Closure ??? Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-04 21:35 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz made a great test olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 15:52 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz made a great test Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-04 22:12 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz code Deviation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 16:13 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz code Deviation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-04 22:33 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz code Deviation "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 14:41 -0800
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz code Deviation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 17:18 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz code Deviation Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-05 02:08 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz code Deviation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 20:24 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz makes a very smart example olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-04 18:16 -0600
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-11-03 12:05 +0200
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-03 17:16 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-11-03 20:19 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-03 21:35 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-03 21:36 +0000
                Olcott's revised position statement olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-03 15:48 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-03 21:57 +0000
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-02 14:10 -0500
  Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-31 12:35 +0000
    Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 18:00 +0000
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-31 19:46 +0000
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 23:10 +0000
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 02:47 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-01 00:14 -0400
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 18:09 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 12:53 -0700
                A decider for the proposition "Tristan is Olcott" (Was: Semantic properties of finite string inputs) Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 20:15 +0000
                Re: A decider for the proposition "Tristan is Olcott" (Was: Semantic properties of finite string inputs) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 14:06 -0700
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 22:13 -0400
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 02:53 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 21:58 -0500
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 04:23 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 23:37 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 07:47 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 08:22 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 16:54 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 12:50 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 20:59 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 16:32 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 14:37 -0700
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 22:11 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 17:17 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 23:51 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- More precisely Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 18:14 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 13:38 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 14:45 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 14:01 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 15:05 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 14:13 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 22:46 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 17:50 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 23:47 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 18:56 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-02 00:12 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 19:18 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-02 00:50 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 20:13 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-02 02:40 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 21:49 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-02 17:47 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-02 07:39 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-02 07:19 -0600
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 22:13 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 22:19 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 17:31 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-02 17:57 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 22:36 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 17:38 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-02 07:43 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 22:59 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 18:09 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-02 22:32 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 19:51 -0700
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 12:50 -0700
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 20:23 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 15:32 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 21:16 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- deliberately misleading Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 22:00 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 03:38 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-01 00:19 -0400
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 17:37 -0500
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 23:16 +0000
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 19:38 -0400
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 01:05 +0000
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-11-01 02:38 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 21:43 -0500
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 22:17 -0400
  Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-31 12:48 +0000
    Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 08:58 -0500
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-31 17:43 +0000
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 13:25 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 22:26 -0400
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 17:49 +0000
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 17:38 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-31 23:06 +0000
            Monty Python (Was: Semantic properties of finite string inputs) Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 20:30 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 15:36 -0500
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 14:06 -0400
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-31 19:57 +0000
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 22:32 -0400
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 20:36 +0000
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-11-02 20:49 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-02 22:44 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-03 17:32 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-03 11:57 -0600
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-11-02 22:48 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 03:46 +0000
  Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 12:17 -0400
    Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 11:51 -0500
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 13:42 -0400
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 13:45 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-31 20:10 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- many months of careful crafting olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 16:00 -0500
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- many months of careful crafting Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 22:45 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- many months of careful crafting Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 21:39 +0000
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- many months of careful crafting joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-11-01 12:01 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- many months of careful crafting olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 08:14 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 22:38 -0400
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-11-01 12:10 +0000
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 08:18 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-11-01 13:23 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 08:55 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 09:45 -0400
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 22:49 +0000
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 16:59 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 12:53 -0500
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 20:34 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- damned liars olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 16:45 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- damned liars Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 23:40 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 17:11 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 23:33 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 18:42 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 23:58 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 19:01 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-02 00:14 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 19:21 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-11-02 01:13 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 18:27 -0700
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-11-02 01:59 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs --- Breakthrough "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 19:24 -0700
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 17:10 +0000
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 12:15 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-11-01 17:25 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 12:29 -0500
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-11-01 18:03 +0000
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 20:38 +0000
    Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-31 17:46 +0000
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 13:57 -0400
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-31 20:16 +0000
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 13:26 -0700
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-31 20:43 +0000
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 13:57 -0700
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 16:06 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 14:22 -0700
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-11-01 11:55 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 08:12 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-11-01 13:26 +0000
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 08:56 -0500
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-31 14:23 -0700
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 22:50 -0400
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 21:47 +0000
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-11-01 00:38 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 21:50 +0000
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 16:57 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-31 22:49 -0400
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 21:54 +0000
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 16:59 -0500
                Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-11-01 22:28 +0000
  Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-11-01 13:44 +0000
    Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 08:57 -0500
      Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-11-01 16:07 +0000
        Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 12:07 -0500
          Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-11-01 17:26 +0000
            Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 12:31 -0500
              Re: Semantic properties of finite string inputs "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-11-01 12:42 -0700

csiph-web