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Groups > comp.theory > #132775
| From | Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory |
| Subject | Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory |
| Date | 2025-10-16 19:12 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <20251016120057.231@kylheku.com> (permalink) |
| References | (7 earlier) <20251015092748.515@kylheku.com> <10cos3j$3t2ub$1@dont-email.me> <20251015133621.400@kylheku.com> <10cp21m$3uske$1@dont-email.me> <10cp6ke$6eo$1@dont-email.me> |
On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote: > On 10/15/2025 4:00 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 10/15/2025 3:47 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote: >>> On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Please think this all the way through without making any guesses. >>>> >>>> Simulating Termination Analyzer HHH correctly simulates its input until: >>> >>> This sentence must end with nothing other than "until that input >>> terminates". >>> >>> Otherwise the simulation is not complete and correct. >>> >>>> (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern: >>>> abort simulation and return 0. >>>> (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated "return" statement: >>>> return 1. >>>> (c) If HHH must abort its simulation to prevent its own non-termination >>>> then HHH is correct to abort this simulation and return 0. >>> >>> HHH is correct to abort the simulation because if it doesn't do that, >>> it will not terminate. All halting deciders that incorporate simulation >>> as a tool must break out of simulation at some point in order not to be >>> tripped up by inputs that fail to terminate. >>> >> >> Great I just tested this and ChatGPT 5.0 and Gemini get >> the wrong answer without (c). ChatGPT 4.0, Claude AI >> and Grok all got this same answer without (c) and >> without being told not to guess. >> >>> Without breaking out of the simulation, it would not be possible >>> for HHH(Infinite_Loop) or HHH(Infinite_Recursion) to decide correctly >>> that the return value should be zero. >>> >> >> Yes. >> >>> However, nothing is effective against the diagonal input. >>> >> >> Unless we go be the behavior that the semantics >> of the specification language specifies as the >> ultimate judge. >> >>>> What value should HHH(DD) correctly return? >>> >> >> Not within the stipulated axioms when (c) is invoked. >> >>> The set of possible solutions is the empty set. >>> >>> 3x + y = 5 >>> 6x + 2y = 3 >>> >>> What pairs <x, y> satisfy these equations? >>> >>> HHH(DD) not having a solution is no different from simultaneous >>> equations in n variables not having a solution. >>> >>> Elementary school children can work with these. >>> >> >> Its deeper than that. See my other post. >> > > I didn't get the correct understanding by being > a brilliant computer scientist. I got it by focusing > on how pathological self-reference effects truth. > I did this with an OCD like focus of concentration > for 28 years. Unfortunately, all you got out of it is a bunch of hand-waving arguments which amount to "believe me when I say that halting is analogous to the Liar Paradox" and "incorrect questions", and a C project whose behavior you don't properly understand yourself, and misconstrue as supporting your narratives. In a recent post you reveal that you still believe in the misconception that the abstract halting function is ill-defined; i.e. that the background assumption in the halting problem that every Turing Machine (or recursive function) either halts or not, is flawed. Due to your anterograde amnesia and generally declining cognitive abilities, you have once again regressed. Just weeks ago, you acknowledged that when a certain decider is wrong on a diagonal case, /another/ decider can correctly decide the case. So it looked like you are finally "getting" that. Unfortunately,you are back again on the program of arguing that there exist undecidable cases: machines whose halting status is incomputable because they inherently don't have one. You're basically a nearly complete idiot, except for your ability to string together sentences containing the right words pertaining to the subject matter. If the world needed a crank to rant about the halting problem, a 100 line Python program linked to an AI cloud service could do the job better than you. > In the top of my new post [The Halting Problem is Incoherent] > I show exactly how to overcome Quine's objection to the I can count using about three fingers the items for which you've ever shown "exactly how", and that's being generous. Yes; you've correctly identified that when you have a simulating H, whether it is purely simulating, or contains abort logic, for one reason or another, its simulation of D never reaches the point where the simulated H returns to the simulated D, and D is able to "behave opposite". You have milked completely unwarranted conclusions from that observation, unfortunately, and whenever objections are raised to your conclusions, you assume that people must be too stupid to be aware of that observation, otherwise they would come to the same cranky conclusions. -- TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
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The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 21:17 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 02:46 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 22:04 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 03:34 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 22:46 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 05:36 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 06:44 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 16:38 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 12:12 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-15 17:19 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 12:24 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-15 18:25 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:07 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 06:55 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-16 08:33 +0100
The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:23 -0500
The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:14 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 19:01 +0000
The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:11 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 18:54 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:19 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 13:14 -0700
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 20:47 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 16:00 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 17:18 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 19:12 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 14:58 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 15:56 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-16 21:07 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 16:19 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-16 22:25 +0100
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 16:39 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:46 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:45 +0000
The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 17:28 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-10-15 12:21 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 07:32 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2025-10-15 16:50 +0200
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 16:25 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-16 12:34 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:27 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 14:03 -0700
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:45 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 10:11 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-18 11:58 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-18 05:47 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 11:39 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-19 10:31 +0100
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 14:16 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-19 13:38 +0100
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 11:04 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 13:22 -0700
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 13:34 -0700
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 23:00 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 05:37 +0100
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-15 05:39 +0100
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 05:38 +0000
The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 18:33 -0500
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Python <jpierre.messager@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 23:59 +0000
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 06:46 +0100
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:14 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 05:53 +0100
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 07:56 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-15 12:15 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 07:30 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-16 12:21 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:34 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:31 +0000
The halting problem incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 17:04 -0500
Re: The halting problem incoherent Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:59 +0300
Re: The halting problem incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 06:47 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:54 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 10:15 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 11:42 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 11:08 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-19 18:43 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 10:24 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 17:18 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:34 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 17:41 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:47 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 18:09 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 13:42 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 19:21 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 14:30 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 22:15 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 17:33 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 17:43 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 15:59 -0700
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-20 23:58 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 19:07 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 01:32 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 20:38 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 02:00 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 21:21 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 03:22 +0000
The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:37 -0500
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:45 -0400
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:51 -0500
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:55 -0400
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:09 -0500
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 08:09 -0400
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 08:30 -0500
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 09:34 -0400
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 09:45 -0500
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 10:51 -0400
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 10:17 -0500
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 11:19 -0400
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 10:26 -0500
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:31 -0400
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:17 -0500
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 12:57 -0400
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 05:42 +0000
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-21 06:55 +0100
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 01:37 -0500
Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 16:22 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 20:55 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 02:15 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:02 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-20 20:59 +0000
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-20 12:22 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:06 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-22 11:51 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 07:22 -0500
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-23 13:04 +0300
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 13:08 -0700
Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-16 07:55 -0400
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