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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #39418

Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior

From anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior
Date 2015-05-29 13:51 +0000
Organization Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Message-ID <2015May29.155142@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink)
References (2 earlier) <5561b9b6$0$2868$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl> <mjsnid$99v$2@dont-email.me> <55623fa0$0$2821$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl> <2015May27.111505@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <5566258f$0$2923$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl>

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Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> writes:
>Anton Ertl wrote:
>
>> This is Forth, and in Forth it's the same data type.
>
>May be you missed this QUOTE from the ANS Forth standard:
>
>"The discipline of circumscribing meaning which a program may 
>assign to various combinations of bit patterns is sometimes 
>called data typing. Many computer languages impose explicit data 
>typing and have compilers that prevent ill-defined operations. 
>Forth rarely explicitly imposes data-type restrictions. Still, 
>data types implicitly do exist, and discipline is required, 
>particularly if portability of programs is a goal. In Forth, it 
>is incumbent upon the programmer (rather than the compiler) to 
>determine that data are accurately typed."

No, I did not miss that.  But you missed that the types in standard
Forth do not have the restrictions you would like them to have.

|3.1.3.1 Flags
|
|[...] A true flag returned by a standard word shall be a single-cell value
|with all bits set. A false flag returned by a standard word shall be a
|single-cell value with all bits clear.

>For all purposes: what a comparison operator returns is a BOOLEAN, not a
>number, not a mask, a BOOLEAN.

No, what a comparison operator returns is a (well-formed) flag; and a
well-formed flag has a bit-pattern that can be used as a mask.

Forth is not Pascal, or Algol or wherever you have "BOOLEAN" from.

>"While Forth words which test flags accept any non-null bit pattern as true, 
>there exists the concept of the well-formed flag."
>
>Followed by:
>
>" .. the following words are valid for operations on one or more flag data
>residing on the data stack: AND OR XOR INVERT"
>
>Read: one or more FLAGS - not a mixture of flags and cells or whatever.

This statement in the informative (not normative) part of the standard
states some of the cases for which theese words are valid, but is not
exhaustive.  You can look in the normative part of the standard what
these words actually do.  E.g.,:

|6.1.0720 AND                                                 CORE
|           ( x1 x2 ­ ­ x3 )
|           x3 is the bit-by-bit logical "and" of x1 with x2.

BTW, I find your definition of a different, but still documented
numeric value for TRUE in your 4th to be not congruent with your
strongly-typed attitude.  I see a number of options that are more in
your spirit.

1) Static type checking.

2) Dynamic type checking.

3) TRUE and FALSE are represented by arbitrary (but different) bit
patterns (possibly different at every session), flags can be combined
only with NOT and your && and || (which only take and only produce
TRUE and FALSE), and IF, UNTIL, etc. work only when you pass them
either TRUE or FALSE; AND OR INVERT 0= cannot be used for flags in
that scheme.

4) TRUE and FALSE are arbitrary (but different) bit patterns, where
certain bits are 0 for FALSE and 1 for TRUE, and IF UNTIL etc. check
(only) these bits (the bit patterns and the checked bits may differ
from session to session).  In this scheme AND OR INVERT can be used
for flags, but 0= cannot.

In none of these schemes flags can be used reliably as masks, nor can
you do "( n ) IF" (instead use "( n ) 0<> IF").

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
     New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
   EuroForth 2015: http://www.mpeforth.com/euroforth2015/euroforth2015.htm

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unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 19:27 -0700
  Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-23 20:27 -0700
    Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 13:44 +0200
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 10:36 -0400
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 23:16 +0200
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 15:57 -0700
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-05-25 02:21 +0200
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-24 15:21 -1000
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 19:49 -0700
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 18:22 -0700
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-26 17:20 +0000
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 14:15 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-26 08:37 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 15:09 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-26 09:19 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 17:08 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 15:42 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 19:30 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 17:45 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 21:33 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-05-27 14:08 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 06:32 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-05-27 16:15 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-26 14:32 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-27 08:30 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 17:15 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-29 21:05 -0700
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 01:41 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 23:26 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-25 14:33 +0000
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 10:56 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 11:28 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 14:33 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-25 12:57 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 23:01 -0700
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-25 14:21 +0000
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-05-26 23:59 +0000
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-27 09:15 +0000
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-27 10:06 +0000
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 12:03 -0400
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-27 16:23 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 12:39 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 22:14 +0200
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 17:13 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 23:36 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 18:06 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 10:35 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-29 12:16 +0100
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 09:42 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 16:16 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-29 15:24 +0100
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-27 17:32 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-05-27 23:59 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 19:31 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 23:11 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-28 12:21 +0100
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-28 12:24 +0100
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 10:53 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-29 12:19 +0100
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-29 13:51 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 17:48 +0200
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-05-29 02:08 +0200
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-29 08:25 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-29 12:40 +0100
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-29 13:16 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-05-29 18:43 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-29 20:08 +0100
                x86 tricks Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-06-05 09:42 +0200
                Re: x86 tricks albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-06-05 09:32 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-05 09:40 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-06-05 11:17 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-05 15:49 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-06-05 17:45 +0100
                Re: x86 tricks anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-05 16:53 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 13:20 -0400
                Re: x86 tricks anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-08 07:18 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-06-08 17:18 +0200
                Re: x86 tricks Tessa Bonting <tessa.bonting@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 08:42 -0700
                Re: x86 tricks albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-06-06 09:47 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-07 15:05 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-06-07 17:49 +0100
                Re: x86 tricks "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-06-05 13:19 +0100
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 01:38 -0700
  Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-23 21:33 -0700
    Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-23 22:10 -0700
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 22:20 -0700
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-25 21:13 -0700
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-27 17:34 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 22:04 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-28 01:27 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-28 03:20 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-28 04:13 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-29 04:23 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 11:28 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-29 18:32 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 18:53 -0400
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-23 22:26 -0700
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-23 21:37 -1000
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 10:24 -0700
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-24 20:40 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 14:08 +0200
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-25 17:27 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-25 14:47 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-27 17:33 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-25 12:53 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-25 13:05 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-25 14:49 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-25 18:03 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-25 16:44 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 22:56 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-26 08:05 +0000
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 10:43 -0400
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-24 08:29 -0700
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-24 15:44 +0000
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-27 00:57 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 13:11 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-06-05 12:24 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2015-06-06 13:29 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-07 14:56 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-06-07 10:38 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-08 08:08 +0000
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 10:01 -0700
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 10:40 -0400
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 11:29 -0700
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-25 09:51 -0700
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-25 10:44 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-25 12:34 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-25 12:59 -0700
  unexpected +LOOP behavior Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 01:39 -0700
    Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-05-24 14:46 +0200
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 01:17 -0700
    Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-24 20:48 -0400
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 18:15 -0700
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-25 12:35 +0000
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-25 17:27 -0400
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 18:16 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 16:17 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 17:16 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-25 17:50 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 18:47 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-25 20:01 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 20:29 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 20:32 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-26 08:03 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 01:10 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-26 22:31 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-26 20:07 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 20:20 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-26 22:00 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 02:41 -0700
  Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-24 14:06 +0000

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