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Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior

From "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior
Date 2015-05-27 17:33 -0400
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <op.xzbcuvcvwhxjl4@localhost> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <moednUToyPo_4vzInZ2dnUU7-KmdnZ2d@supernews.com> <11e526ae-3d3a-4e92-bbc9-da83bc5d2888@googlegroups.com> <556310d8$0$2873$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl> <op.xy7m7ztnwhxjl4@localhost> <idKdnTVKcsUPX_7InZ2dnUU7-f-dnZ2d@supernews.com>

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On Mon, 25 May 2015 20:47:13 -0400, Elizabeth D. Rather
<erather@forth.com> wrote:
> On 5/25/15 11:27 AM, Rod Pemberton wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 May 2015 08:08:59 -0400, Hans Bezemer
>> <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:

>>>> Of course, this is totally baffling to the user who would intuitively
>>>> expect 2>R to be the same as >R >R. A lot of people have tried to  
>>>> learn
>>>> ANS-Forth, but have become confused by the weird and pointless
>>>> "optimizations" such as this, and so they just gave up and went back  
>>>> to
>>>> C programming.
>>>
>>> Agreed. It's more efficient as well:
>>>
>>> : 2>r >r >r ;
>>> : 2r@ r> r@ over >r ;
>>> : 2r> r> r> ;
>>>
>>> Again: if you're treating something as a unit (2 cells), don't start
>>> using it as half a unit halfway. If you abide by this rule, it doesn't
>>> really matter if you use these definitions or the "SWAPped" ones.
>>>
>>> It's these quirks that make Forth a "write only" language.
>>
>> If 2R> is a primitive, what's to prevent someone from doing this:
>>
>> : SWAP >R >R 2R> ;
>
> Nothing, except the fact that SWAP (which is also a primitive in most
> systems) will then be slower.

What?  ...

Ms. Rather, you seemed to have dropped usage of "low-level word" for
"primitives."

Well, it might be good for bootstrapping a system, i.e., because it's
more factored and has less redundancy of functionality.  If you need
fewer words, this could save a word or two.

However, this was really just an off-beat comment on "quirks" and
"write only".


Rod Pemberton
-- 
If fewer guns reduced murders, how does one explain
Moscow, Chicago, New York, and South Africa?

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unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 19:27 -0700
  Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-23 20:27 -0700
    Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 13:44 +0200
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 10:36 -0400
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 23:16 +0200
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 15:57 -0700
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-05-25 02:21 +0200
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-24 15:21 -1000
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 19:49 -0700
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 18:22 -0700
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-26 17:20 +0000
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 14:15 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-26 08:37 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 15:09 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-26 09:19 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 17:08 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 15:42 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 19:30 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 17:45 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 21:33 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-05-27 14:08 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 06:32 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-05-27 16:15 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-26 14:32 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-27 08:30 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 17:15 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-29 21:05 -0700
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 01:41 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 23:26 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-25 14:33 +0000
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 10:56 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 11:28 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 14:33 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-25 12:57 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 23:01 -0700
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-25 14:21 +0000
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-05-26 23:59 +0000
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-27 09:15 +0000
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-27 10:06 +0000
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 12:03 -0400
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-27 16:23 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 12:39 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 22:14 +0200
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 17:13 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 23:36 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 18:06 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 10:35 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-29 12:16 +0100
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 09:42 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 16:16 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-29 15:24 +0100
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-27 17:32 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-05-27 23:59 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 19:31 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 23:11 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-28 12:21 +0100
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-28 12:24 +0100
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 10:53 +0200
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-29 12:19 +0100
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-29 13:51 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 17:48 +0200
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-05-29 02:08 +0200
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-29 08:25 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-29 12:40 +0100
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-29 13:16 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-05-29 18:43 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-29 20:08 +0100
                x86 tricks Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-06-05 09:42 +0200
                Re: x86 tricks albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-06-05 09:32 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-05 09:40 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-06-05 11:17 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-05 15:49 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-06-05 17:45 +0100
                Re: x86 tricks anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-05 16:53 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 13:20 -0400
                Re: x86 tricks anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-08 07:18 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-06-08 17:18 +0200
                Re: x86 tricks Tessa Bonting <tessa.bonting@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 08:42 -0700
                Re: x86 tricks albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-06-06 09:47 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-07 15:05 +0000
                Re: x86 tricks "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-06-07 17:49 +0100
                Re: x86 tricks "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-06-05 13:19 +0100
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 01:38 -0700
  Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-23 21:33 -0700
    Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-23 22:10 -0700
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 22:20 -0700
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-25 21:13 -0700
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-27 17:34 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 22:04 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-28 01:27 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-28 03:20 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-28 04:13 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-29 04:23 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 11:28 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-29 18:32 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 18:53 -0400
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-23 22:26 -0700
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-23 21:37 -1000
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 10:24 -0700
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-24 20:40 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 14:08 +0200
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-25 17:27 -0400
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-25 14:47 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-27 17:33 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-25 12:53 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-25 13:05 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-25 14:49 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-25 18:03 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-05-25 16:44 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 22:56 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-26 08:05 +0000
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 10:43 -0400
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-24 08:29 -0700
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-24 15:44 +0000
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-27 00:57 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 13:11 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-06-05 12:24 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2015-06-06 13:29 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-07 14:56 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-06-07 10:38 -1000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-06-08 08:08 +0000
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 10:01 -0700
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 10:40 -0400
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 11:29 -0700
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-25 09:51 -0700
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-25 10:44 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-05-25 12:34 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-25 12:59 -0700
  unexpected +LOOP behavior Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 01:39 -0700
    Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-05-24 14:46 +0200
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 01:17 -0700
    Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-24 20:48 -0400
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-05-24 18:15 -0700
      Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-25 12:35 +0000
        Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior "Rod Pemberton" <fork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-05-25 17:27 -0400
          Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 18:16 -0400
            Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 16:17 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 17:16 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-25 17:50 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 18:47 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-25 20:01 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 20:29 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 20:32 -0700
              Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-26 08:03 +0000
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 01:10 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-26 22:31 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-26 20:07 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 20:20 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior Michael Barry <barrym95838@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-26 22:00 -0700
                Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior chitselb <chitselb@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 02:41 -0700
  Re: unexpected +LOOP behavior anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-24 14:06 +0000

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