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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #33015
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? |
| Date | 2014-08-23 07:15 +0000 |
| Organization | Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien |
| Message-ID | <2014Aug23.091548@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink) |
| References | (7 earlier) <lt0cd2$uu$1@online.de> <2014Aug20.094606@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <lt37a0$tnf$1@online.de> <2014Aug22.171358@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <lt7s7a$4le$1@online.de> |
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>Anton Ertl wrote:
>
>> Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
>>>The idea that it's my proposal is silly; I jumped late on this
>>>smart COMPILE, bandwagon. Win32Forth STC already had it, you made a
>>>posting proposing that, and Stephen gave a talk at a EuroForth, and then I
>>>was
>>>convinced. This is nothing new, this has been in VFX for ages (and with
>>>"ages" I mean really right from start). This is known to work with the 1
>>>million lines of CCS, and it also works with the 500 lines of guru code in
>>>BerndOOF. There's very little which survives both tests, and BerndOOF is
>>>actually of the class *you* think would fail.
>> ...
>>> We can ask Stephen, how much code breakage he
>>>has observed.
>>
>> As it turns out, no need to ask around, just in the thread next door
>> <lt79f6$b0o$1@dont-email.me> we get to see breakage from VFX's
>> "COMPILE,", and in the core of VFX as well:
>>
>> : [cif] [COMPILE] IF ; IMMEDIATE
>> Err# -22 ERR: Control structure mismatch.
>> -> : [cif] [COMPILE] IF ; IMMEDIATE
>>
>> How does COMPILE, come into play? Look here:
>>
>> see [compile]
>> [COMPILE] (is IMMEDIATE)
>> ( 08058398 E897FFFFFF ) CALL 08058334 '
>> ( 0805839D E8EEE7FFFF ) CALL 08056B90 COMPILE,
>> ( 080583A2 C3 ) NEXT,
>> ( 11 bytes, 3 instructions )
>
>Yes, taking away immediacy of words you expect to be immediate is bound to
>cause problems with words like [COMPILE], which assume that the user knows
>whether the word is immediate or not (which is a bad idea).
>
>That's why POSTPONE was invented. I don't quite understand why [COMPILE]
>was left in the standard, it's impossible to use correctly given that the
>standard doesn't tell which words are immediate and which aren't (with a few
>exceptions).
It's definitely possible to use correctly. [COMPILE] does not ask
whether a word is immediate, so there is no need for the standard to
tell. The specification talks about whether a word has default
compilation semantics, and the standard tells whether a word has
default compilation semantics (a word without a "Compilation:"
section has default compilation semantics).
>If you look at the definition of [COMPILE] in Gforth, you see that there's
>an obvious way to fix [COMPILE] in VFX:
>
>: [compile] ( compilation "name" -- ; run-time ? -- ? ) \ core-ext bracket-
>compile
> comp' drop
> dup [ comp' exit drop ] literal = if
> execute \ EXIT has default compilation semantics, perform them
> else
> compile,
> then ; immediate
>
>Yeah, there's a special casing for EXIT, because people using [COMPILE] will
>assume EXIT to be non-immediate, so we "cheat".
No, there is a special casing for EXIT, because EXIT has default
compilation semantics, but (unlike for other words in Gforth with
default compilation semantics) COMP' EXIT DROP produces an xt for the
compilation semantics, not the execution semantics. No cheat
involved.
>VFX should cheat the same
>way, and have a small case statement with all the words users expect to be
>immediate.
VFX also should take into account whether a word has default or
non-default compilation semantics.
But that's not the point I wanted to make. In a traditional
implementation, VFX's implementation of [COMPILE]
: [compile] ' compile, ; immediate
is correct. VFX's change to COMPILE, broke it. You asked for
breakage? Here's one example. And I did not even need to search for
it.
>In effect, the way [COMPILE] is written renders the entire semantics stuff
>null and void: It means that there is a direct relation from the immediate
>and compile-only flag to the way the word's description is structured: no
>interpretation semantics: compile-only. Non-default compilation semantics:
>immediate. Default compilation semantics: non-immediate.
That is certainly the relation between the semantics stuff and
traditional implementations (plus COMPILE-ONLY), but that's
independent of [COMPILE].
>BTW: There's no use of [compile] as a standard word in the entire Gforth
>source code (the cross compiler's [compile] doesn't count, because it does
>something different: It works for forward references, while postpone doesn't
>and can't), which makes the word of dubious quality.
It's of dubious utility, but that says little about quality. My guess
is that, since POSTPONE was new and people did not trust it yet, they
wanted to keep [COMPILE] for the traditionalists. Even twenty years
later we see at least one thread every year where some people express
their dislike of POSTPONE and advocate to use [COMPILE] and COMPILE
instead.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2014: http://www.euroforth.org/ef14/
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does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-17 21:09 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bee <forth@calcentral.com> - 2014-08-17 23:06 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-18 17:03 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-08-18 22:19 -0400
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-19 09:14 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-08-19 15:23 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-08-19 14:54 +0100
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-08-19 16:09 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-19 15:39 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-08-19 22:34 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-08-19 23:29 +0100
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-08-20 23:06 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-08-20 22:21 +0100
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-20 07:46 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-08-21 00:26 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-20 22:42 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-21 10:23 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-21 23:29 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-22 12:54 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-22 17:54 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-23 10:46 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-23 11:15 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-24 13:32 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-24 10:40 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bee <forth@calcentral.com> - 2014-08-24 22:03 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-25 08:31 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-25 22:55 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-21 12:45 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-22 15:13 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-08-22 18:47 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-22 18:28 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-08-23 04:44 -0400
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2014-08-23 16:15 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-23 11:50 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-23 07:15 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-08-23 22:12 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-24 03:51 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-24 13:36 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-25 04:16 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-25 09:44 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-25 11:53 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 06:34 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-26 03:55 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 12:37 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-26 08:24 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 13:55 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-26 10:42 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 16:05 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-09-23 17:20 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-09-23 11:29 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-09-23 23:01 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-08-25 15:59 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 06:23 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-08-26 09:15 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 13:23 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-08-26 01:41 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-08-26 09:32 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-08-26 09:43 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-08-26 02:48 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-08-26 11:58 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-08-26 05:20 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 12:30 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-08-25 14:15 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-08-25 07:44 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-25 14:37 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-08-25 15:14 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-25 15:33 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-08-26 01:56 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-26 04:16 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-08-26 02:24 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-08-26 09:36 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 13:40 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-26 08:57 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 12:52 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-08-26 14:14 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 14:36 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-09-23 17:40 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-26 10:53 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-09-23 17:36 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-25 12:02 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 06:42 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-26 04:08 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-08-26 10:37 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-26 08:30 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-28 08:47 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-29 13:03 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-08-29 09:16 -0500
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 13:06 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-08-26 07:36 -0400
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-09-23 17:28 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-24 09:48 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-08-24 15:55 -0400
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-08-24 15:55 -0400
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-25 08:26 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-08-26 07:36 -0400
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-26 12:12 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-09-23 17:45 +0200
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-08-21 03:25 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-21 23:14 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-19 14:16 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bee <forth@calcentral.com> - 2014-08-17 23:16 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-08-19 09:40 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-08-18 09:16 +0100
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2014-08-18 09:32 +0100
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-08-18 13:09 +0100
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-08-18 12:29 +0000
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-18 17:10 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Bee <forth@calcentral.com> - 2014-08-18 17:48 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-08-18 18:23 -0700
Re: does VFX have the same bug as Gforth? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2014-08-19 13:55 +0100
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