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| From | Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: what is the right value about a = a++; |
| Date | 2012-02-09 00:15 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <20120208160357.841@kylheku.com> (permalink) |
| References | (3 earlier) <8uh1j7t7tkqu9jdu920cgurbnrn2hi3anl@4ax.com> <20120207090433.476@kylheku.com> <qdadndbp0NhHGKzSnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@bestweb.net> <4f319955.234650417@text.giganews.com> <jgs9t7$5se$1@dont-email.me> |
On 2012-02-07, Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
> On 07-Feb-12 15:50, Richard Harter wrote:
>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 15:12:53 -0500, Kenneth Brody
>> <kenbrody@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>> On 2/7/2012 3:15 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>> I don't want diagnostics; I want strict left to right evaluation order
>>>> of operands and subexpressions that complete their side effects before
>>>> yielding a value.
>>>
>>> So, what you are really saying, is you want to eliminate most of C's
>>> optimization abilities, by restricting the order in which the expression
>>> *must* be evaluated, and side effects *must* be completed?
>>
>> Well, no, he isn't saying any such thing. You just made it up. The
>> fact that evaluation order in C is left to the compilers has very
>> little to do with optimization; it is a historical artifact that came
>> from endorsing existing practice when the ANSI standard was put
>> together. Existing practice then was that compiler writers could do
>> evaluations in whatever they pleased and they did.
>
> No, they did evaluations in the order that made the most sense (i.e. had
> the best performance) for their particular implementation--and
> implementations vary.
Old compilers had hard-coded syntax-directed translation behaviors that were
convenient for the implementor. For instance a function call could be
handled as a single unit emitting some boiler-plate expansion.
> For instance, varargs is more straightforward to implement with
> right-to-left evaluation of arguments, at least with a stack-based
> calling convention.
You don't see that you're switching topics from "best performance" to
"straightforward to implement"?
The order matters only for arguments that have side effects. Something like
f(a,b,"foo",x+y) can be evaluated in any order, even if the abstract semantics
calls for strict left to right.
If there are side effects, the order is required so that the same result
is reproduced no matter what. The code generated by the compiler from
a straightforward expression like f(i++, i++) should be no slower
than from an explicit refactoring like
{ int temp0 = i++, temp1 = i++; f(temp0, temp1); }.
> Order of evaluation may not matter for
> register-based calling conventions, but if an implementation uses both,
> it makes sense to use the same order.
Speaking of stacks and registers, machine languages by and large well-defined
evaluation order, so it's laughable for a "higher level assembly" to screw this
up.
There have been some historic oddballs like early RISC processors that blindly
fetched instructions in sequence even though a branch is happening, requiring
the compiler or assembler to fill the delay slots sensibly or stick in NOPs.
It's the same theme theme like unspecified evaluation order in C: unsafe hack
for ease of implementation.
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what is the right value about a = a++; lujnan <lujnan@gmail.com> - 2012-02-06 00:10 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Ruben Mikkonen <camu.umac@gmail.com> - 2012-02-06 00:28 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-02-06 21:27 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2012-02-06 22:39 -0700
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; bert <bert.hutchings@btinternet.com> - 2012-02-06 01:45 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; lujnan <lujnan@gmail.com> - 2012-02-06 02:33 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-06 14:57 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2012-02-06 22:50 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-07 08:15 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; lujnan <lujnan@gmail.com> - 2012-02-07 00:31 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-02-07 09:07 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-07 17:31 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 17:50 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-21 23:42 +0200
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-22 04:28 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-25 00:01 +0200
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-25 02:25 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2012-02-25 09:00 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-02-25 11:13 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-25 19:34 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-25 16:51 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-02-27 16:12 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2012-02-27 22:42 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-27 18:54 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2012-02-07 09:26 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-07 15:12 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-07 21:50 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-07 16:51 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-07 22:49 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-08 14:08 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 00:18 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-09 13:06 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-09 13:58 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 23:52 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-02-10 21:45 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-22 00:09 +0200
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-08 22:35 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-08 15:42 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-08 14:47 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-08 14:29 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 02:27 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-09 23:10 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 09:11 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 07:26 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-02-10 13:12 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 11:07 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 16:27 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 12:17 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 12:09 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-10 18:17 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-11 10:15 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-13 16:04 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 12:30 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 21:30 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 02:48 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-10 09:49 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 00:15 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-09 12:49 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 23:51 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-08 15:39 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 01:05 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 23:24 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-02-10 16:58 +0100
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-10 23:32 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2012-02-08 17:41 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-08 22:25 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-09 13:15 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 23:57 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-10 11:15 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 11:58 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-10 18:14 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-02-10 22:43 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 11:53 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 15:19 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 02:32 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-09 23:13 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 09:34 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 07:32 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-10 22:24 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-10 11:35 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 12:23 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; falk@rahul.net (Edward A. Falk) - 2012-02-08 20:40 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-02-08 15:00 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 01:10 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-09 20:43 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-09 23:36 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 02:40 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-09 23:17 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-08 23:49 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-08 23:42 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; blp@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff) - 2012-02-07 12:09 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-07 07:42 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-07 17:21 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-07 15:24 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 01:27 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 21:57 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalomon@gmail.com> - 2012-02-08 01:00 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; falk@rahul.net (Edward A. Falk) - 2012-02-08 20:33 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 02:05 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Markus Wichmann <nullplan@gmx.net> - 2012-02-09 09:28 +0100
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 10:21 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 11:38 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 00:03 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-02-10 01:15 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-09 13:22 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Slash QB <slashqb@gmail.com> - 2012-02-06 02:35 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-07 03:07 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-07 15:19 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-07 17:00 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 12:05 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 13:46 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2012-02-06 22:37 -0700
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-07 07:22 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-07 01:18 -0500
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