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| From | Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: what is the right value about a = a++; |
| Date | 2012-02-07 17:31 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <20120207091512.859@kylheku.com> (permalink) |
| References | (2 earlier) <bf40ad26-3199-441e-a524-acf38177273f@og8g2000pbb.googlegroups.com> <8uh1j7t7tkqu9jdu920cgurbnrn2hi3anl@4ax.com> <20120207090433.476@kylheku.com> <8ae50e32-0538-4efa-832a-81350d4dbd0b@o4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com> <lnbopao9m8.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> |
On 2012-02-07, Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote: > lujnan <lujnan@gmail.com> writes: >>> I don't want diagnostics; I want strict left to right evaluation order >>> of operands and subexpressions that complete their side effects before >>> yielding a value. >> >> i agree with your point of view. > > Then you don't want C. You could say that to anyone who is working on the next standard. Those who worked on C11 didn't want C99, and those who worked on C99 didn't want C90. > There are valid reasons for the way C leaves some expression evaluations > undefined. No, there are not. There are only outdated beliefs rooted in computer science shamanism. Fact is, defined order is safe. Safety is the number one goal in engineering. > It gives compilers freedom to perform certain optimizations, No, it allows *programmers* to perform optimizations, when using compilers from early 1980-something. > which makes for faster code. And code whose behavior is undefined tends Modern compilers can rearrange code substantially, on a large scale, way beyond the space between two sequence points. > to be unclear, and would better be written in a different way whose It's only unclear because it is undefined. If you have a rule like subexpressions are evaluated from left to right, before parent expressions, and each expression is fully evaluated before the next expression, then all these expressions become perspiciously clear. Let's take a[i] = i++. The main operator is =, so it is evaluated last. a[i] is evaluated first because it is on the left. Then i++ is evaluated, producing the prior value of i. Then that value is moved into a[i] (the original a[i] of course: once a[i] is evaluated it ceases to be a moving target.) > behavior is well defined. Yes, would better be. Would, should does not add up to will. Code will not rewrite itself. That ambiguous expression is sitting in the codebase somewhere, and you don't even know. And the intent? It died with the guy who left the company several years ago and then got run over by a bus. You're out of your intellectual league here, Kiki.
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what is the right value about a = a++; lujnan <lujnan@gmail.com> - 2012-02-06 00:10 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Ruben Mikkonen <camu.umac@gmail.com> - 2012-02-06 00:28 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-02-06 21:27 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2012-02-06 22:39 -0700
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; bert <bert.hutchings@btinternet.com> - 2012-02-06 01:45 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; lujnan <lujnan@gmail.com> - 2012-02-06 02:33 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-06 14:57 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2012-02-06 22:50 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-07 08:15 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; lujnan <lujnan@gmail.com> - 2012-02-07 00:31 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-02-07 09:07 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-07 17:31 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 17:50 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-21 23:42 +0200
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-22 04:28 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-25 00:01 +0200
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-25 02:25 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2012-02-25 09:00 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-02-25 11:13 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-25 19:34 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-25 16:51 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-02-27 16:12 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2012-02-27 22:42 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-27 18:54 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2012-02-07 09:26 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-07 15:12 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-07 21:50 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-07 16:51 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-07 22:49 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-08 14:08 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 00:18 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-09 13:06 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-09 13:58 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 23:52 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-02-10 21:45 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-22 00:09 +0200
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-08 22:35 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-08 15:42 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-08 14:47 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-08 14:29 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 02:27 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-09 23:10 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 09:11 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 07:26 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-02-10 13:12 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 11:07 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 16:27 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 12:17 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 12:09 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-10 18:17 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-11 10:15 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-13 16:04 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 12:30 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 21:30 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 02:48 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-10 09:49 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 00:15 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-09 12:49 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 23:51 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-08 15:39 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 01:05 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 23:24 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-02-10 16:58 +0100
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-10 23:32 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2012-02-08 17:41 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-08 22:25 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-09 13:15 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 23:57 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-10 11:15 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 11:58 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-10 18:14 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-02-10 22:43 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 11:53 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 15:19 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 02:32 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-09 23:13 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 09:34 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 07:32 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-10 22:24 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-10 11:35 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 12:23 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; falk@rahul.net (Edward A. Falk) - 2012-02-08 20:40 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-02-08 15:00 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 01:10 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-09 20:43 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-02-09 23:36 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2012-02-10 02:40 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-09 23:17 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-08 23:49 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-08 23:42 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; blp@cs.stanford.edu (Ben Pfaff) - 2012-02-07 12:09 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-07 07:42 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-07 17:21 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-07 15:24 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 01:27 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 21:57 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalomon@gmail.com> - 2012-02-08 01:00 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; falk@rahul.net (Edward A. Falk) - 2012-02-08 20:33 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 02:05 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Markus Wichmann <nullplan@gmx.net> - 2012-02-09 09:28 +0100
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 10:21 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-09 11:38 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 00:03 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-02-10 01:15 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2012-02-09 13:22 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Slash QB <slashqb@gmail.com> - 2012-02-06 02:35 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-07 03:07 -0800
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-07 15:19 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-07 17:00 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-02-10 12:05 -0600
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-02-10 13:46 -0500
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2012-02-06 22:37 -0700
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-02-07 07:22 +0000
Re: what is the right value about a = a++; Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2012-02-07 01:18 -0500
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