Re: Non-constant initializers

From	Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Non-constant initializers
Date	2011-05-17 17:37 -0400
Organization	Friends of the Galactic Collective
Message-ID	<1e4faf063b586a4-388ce@gmail.com> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <slrnit2rv4.1pme.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net> <649063b2282a33c-c8c94@gmail.com> <slrnit3nuk.2d6t.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net> <58cd71f7945b428-9876d@gmail.com> <slrnit3srt.2gmi.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net>

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On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 04:14:50AM +0000, Seebs wrote:
> On 2011-05-17, Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 02:40:15AM +0000, Seebs wrote:
> >> Very easily.  It is harder to understand how code is failing than to
> >> understand how it's supposed to work.
> 
> > If you don't understand the machine.  Or if there's stuff going on
> > that's undocumented.  Otherwise, what's the big deal?
> 
> Otherwise, the big deal is that if there's a bug, *by definition* you
> don't quite understand how the code works.  Figuring it out necessarily
> involves understanding something you didn't understand when writing it.

Your approach to the problem assumes bugs a priori.  It's fairly
difficult to argue against a position where someone has already
assumed the concluding point.
 
> If something is near the limits of what I can design and code correctly,
> it will be Too Hard to debug.  I might be able to muddle through, but in
> general, it'll stump me.
> 
> So I carefully write stuff that's as simple as I can make it, to reduce
> the risk.

Of course.  No programmers expose themselves to the risk of error
intentionally.  Slow and steady as she goes is the order of the day in
programming.
 
> >> It's been at least a decade, probably longer, during which humans have
> >> consistently lost to compilers at optimization.
> 
> > What do you mean by "optimization"?
> 
> I mean "trying to make code faster by means other than algorithm design".
> Stuff like, say, trying to hand-tune assembly, or trying to decide when
> a loop should or shouldn't be unrolled, anything like that.  The kind of
> thing that is implied by trying to decide whether something will fit in
> an instruction cache.

I suppose it depends on the application.  Some people go to lengths to
avoid cache-line thrashing, and all the rest.  Most applications don't
require that level of analytical detail, and so your point is valid
for the majority of cases.
 


Regards,

Uncle Steve

-- 
Should a professional politician be charged with molestation if he
kisses babies while attending political rallies?

Thread

Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-12 22:59 +0000
  Re: Non-constant initializers Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-13 11:07 +1200
    Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-12 23:17 +0000
      Re: Non-constant initializers Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-13 11:20 +1200
        Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-12 23:30 +0000
          Re: Non-constant initializers Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-13 11:34 +1200
            Re: Non-constant initializers Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-12 16:52 -0700
              Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-14 00:13 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-14 01:28 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 13:52 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers kym@kymhorsell.com - 2011-05-14 01:54 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Columbus sailed the ocean China Blue <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-14 01:07 -0700
                Re: Non-constant initializers kym@kymhorsell.com - 2011-05-14 09:22 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-14 17:14 +0000
            Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-14 00:11 +0000
  Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-12 18:08 -0500
    Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-12 19:22 -0400
      Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-12 18:53 -0500
        Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 13:59 -0400
          Re: Non-constant initializers Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-05-14 14:19 -0400
            Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 15:04 -0500
            Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 15:10 -0400
              Re: Non-constant initializers James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-14 16:01 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 16:57 -0400
          Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 14:30 -0500
            Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 15:25 -0400
              Re: Non-constant initializers Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-14 13:05 -0700
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 17:00 -0400
              Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 16:14 -0500
                Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 16:49 -0500
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 18:21 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 21:26 -0500
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-15 14:01 -0400
              Re: Non-constant initializers Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-05-14 17:45 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 18:09 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-05-15 04:01 +0100
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-15 13:26 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-05-16 02:32 +0100
              Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-15 03:59 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 04:49 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2011-05-16 07:27 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 09:24 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-16 19:10 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 21:23 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-16 19:10 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 21:16 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-16 21:37 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 22:42 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-17 02:40 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 22:50 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-17 04:14 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-17 17:37 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-17 22:22 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-17 18:33 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-05-18 01:58 -0700
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 12:45 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-05-18 19:30 +0200
                Re: Non-constant initializers Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-05-18 20:01 +0100
                Re: bug-free C code (was: Non-constant initializers) Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-19 02:21 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code (was: Non-constant initializers) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-18 20:00 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code (was: Non-constant initializers) Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-19 03:14 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code (was: Non-constant initializers) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-19 07:49 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code (was: Non-constant initializers) Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-19 15:16 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-05-18 20:02 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-18 20:09 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-05-18 23:24 -0400
                Re: bug-free C code Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-19 06:39 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-19 08:05 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-19 16:22 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-19 11:36 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-05-19 12:21 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-19 13:12 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2011-05-19 21:52 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-19 22:16 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-19 17:25 -0500
                Re: bug-free C code Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-20 13:32 -0400
                Re: bug-free C code gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2011-05-19 21:51 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-20 13:30 -0400
                Re: bug-free C code "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalomon@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 23:13 -0400
                Re: bug-free C code Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-05-19 08:23 +0100
      Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-13 00:15 +0000
      Re: Non-constant initializers "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-05-13 11:01 +0200
    Re: Non-constant initializers Columbus sailed the ocean China Blue <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-12 16:30 -0700
  Re: Non-constant initializers Columbus sailed the ocean China Blue <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-12 16:15 -0700
    Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-12 23:28 +0000
  Re: Non-constant initializers Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-05-12 18:01 -0600
    Re: Non-constant initializers Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-12 18:15 -0700
      Re: Non-constant initializers Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-05-12 22:56 -0600
        Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-13 05:18 +0000
          Re: Non-constant initializers Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-05-13 09:10 -0600
            Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-13 20:56 +0000
      Re: Non-constant initializers Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-18 23:47 -0700
        Re: Non-constant initializers Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-19 08:15 -0700
    Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-13 23:57 +0000

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