Re: Non-constant initializers

From	Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Non-constant initializers
Date	2011-05-16 22:50 -0400
Organization	Friends of the Galactic Collective
Message-ID	<58cd71f7945b428-9876d@gmail.com> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <slrnisudlh.2cpo.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net> <fd8c08cd3702e54-40650@gmail.com> <slrnit2rv4.1pme.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net> <649063b2282a33c-c8c94@gmail.com> <slrnit3nuk.2d6t.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net>

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On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 02:40:15AM +0000, Seebs wrote:
> On 2011-05-17, Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> wrote:
> > That depends.  Every function has it's own ranking of relative hotness
> > within the application.  If you've got money to burn, you can afford
> > to throw as many programmers as you want at the problem.  Maybe you
> > have so much money you don't care that they're optimizing the
> > documentation tools.  All I know is that I have programming
> > proclivities that lead to Cycle Conservation, and who could argue
> > against that?
> 
> Someone who has had to debug code that was written with "efficient" habits.
> 
> > I've heard that before, and what I say is that the same skill that is
> > used to write the code is also used in debugging the code.  I really
> > don't see how I'm going to write myself into a situation where I cannot
> > debug any system that I wrote.
> 
> Very easily.  It is harder to understand how code is failing than to
> understand how it's supposed to work.

If you don't understand the machine.  Or if there's stuff going on
that's undocumented.  Otherwise, what's the big deal?
 
> > Sure there can, but it must rely on implementation specific
> > documentation.
> 
> And even given that... Who says they'll not change it later?  Nothing
> to keep them from doing so.  Who says the documentation is right?  Who
> says they'll fix a "bug" in this stuff?
> 
> It's the kind of thing people tend to not care about.
> 
> > Maybe, but I think you presume too much when you assume that the
> > compiler should be the arbiter of optimization.  Possibly some far-in-
> > the-future compiler will have strong-AI capabilities wrt code
> > generation, but until that time the human programmer will probably be
> > able to do a better job than the compiler.  All things being equal.
> 
> Well, uhm.
> 
> No.
> 
> It's been at least a decade, probably longer, during which humans have
> consistently lost to compilers at optimization.

What do you mean by "optimization"?
 
> > Are you saying that there are major changes to the C standard in the
> > offing?  I don't see how that could be without changing fundamentals,
> > and we all know that that is about as likely as porcine avians.
> 
> I don't know about "major", but certainly "significant".  Compound literals
> were a major change, and I wouldn't be surprised to see comparably significant
> changes in future revisions.

Yeah, well maybe I'll just become one of those wierd people who lock
in all their code to C99, no matter what developments arise.  I could
do that, you know.  I'm a wierdo.



Regards,

Uncle Steve

-- 
Should a professional politician be charged with molestation if he
kisses babies while attending political rallies?

Thread

Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-12 22:59 +0000
  Re: Non-constant initializers Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-13 11:07 +1200
    Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-12 23:17 +0000
      Re: Non-constant initializers Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-13 11:20 +1200
        Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-12 23:30 +0000
          Re: Non-constant initializers Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-13 11:34 +1200
            Re: Non-constant initializers Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-12 16:52 -0700
              Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-14 00:13 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-14 01:28 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 13:52 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers kym@kymhorsell.com - 2011-05-14 01:54 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Columbus sailed the ocean China Blue <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-14 01:07 -0700
                Re: Non-constant initializers kym@kymhorsell.com - 2011-05-14 09:22 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-14 17:14 +0000
            Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-14 00:11 +0000
  Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-12 18:08 -0500
    Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-12 19:22 -0400
      Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-12 18:53 -0500
        Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 13:59 -0400
          Re: Non-constant initializers Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-05-14 14:19 -0400
            Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 15:04 -0500
            Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 15:10 -0400
              Re: Non-constant initializers James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-14 16:01 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 16:57 -0400
          Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 14:30 -0500
            Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 15:25 -0400
              Re: Non-constant initializers Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-14 13:05 -0700
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 17:00 -0400
              Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 16:14 -0500
                Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 16:49 -0500
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 18:21 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 21:26 -0500
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-15 14:01 -0400
              Re: Non-constant initializers Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-05-14 17:45 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 18:09 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-05-15 04:01 +0100
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-15 13:26 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-05-16 02:32 +0100
              Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-15 03:59 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 04:49 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2011-05-16 07:27 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 09:24 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-16 19:10 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 21:23 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-16 19:10 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 21:16 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-16 21:37 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 22:42 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-17 02:40 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-16 22:50 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-17 04:14 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-17 17:37 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-17 22:22 +0000
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-17 18:33 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-05-18 01:58 -0700
                Re: Non-constant initializers Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 12:45 -0400
                Re: Non-constant initializers "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-05-18 19:30 +0200
                Re: Non-constant initializers Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-05-18 20:01 +0100
                Re: bug-free C code (was: Non-constant initializers) Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-19 02:21 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code (was: Non-constant initializers) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-18 20:00 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code (was: Non-constant initializers) Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-19 03:14 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code (was: Non-constant initializers) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-19 07:49 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code (was: Non-constant initializers) Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-19 15:16 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-05-18 20:02 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-18 20:09 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2011-05-18 23:24 -0400
                Re: bug-free C code Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-19 06:39 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-19 08:05 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-19 16:22 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-19 11:36 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-05-19 12:21 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-19 13:12 -0700
                Re: bug-free C code gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2011-05-19 21:52 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-19 22:16 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-19 17:25 -0500
                Re: bug-free C code Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-20 13:32 -0400
                Re: bug-free C code gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2011-05-19 21:51 +0000
                Re: bug-free C code Kenneth Brody <kenbrody@spamcop.net> - 2011-05-20 13:30 -0400
                Re: bug-free C code "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalomon@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 23:13 -0400
                Re: bug-free C code Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-05-19 08:23 +0100
      Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-13 00:15 +0000
      Re: Non-constant initializers "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-05-13 11:01 +0200
    Re: Non-constant initializers Columbus sailed the ocean China Blue <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-12 16:30 -0700
  Re: Non-constant initializers Columbus sailed the ocean China Blue <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-12 16:15 -0700
    Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-12 23:28 +0000
  Re: Non-constant initializers Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-05-12 18:01 -0600
    Re: Non-constant initializers Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-12 18:15 -0700
      Re: Non-constant initializers Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-05-12 22:56 -0600
        Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-13 05:18 +0000
          Re: Non-constant initializers Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-05-13 09:10 -0600
            Re: Non-constant initializers Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-13 20:56 +0000
      Re: Non-constant initializers Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-18 23:47 -0700
        Re: Non-constant initializers Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-19 08:15 -0700
    Re: Non-constant initializers Fred the Freshwater Catfish <usenet.fred@bdtd.invalid> - 2011-05-13 23:57 +0000

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