Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs

From	glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.compilers
Subject	Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs
Date	2014-07-04 06:08 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<14-07-010@comp.compilers> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <14-06-027@comp.compilers> <14-06-030@comp.compilers> <14-06-031@comp.compilers> <14-07-003@comp.compilers> <14-07-006@comp.compilers>

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Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>> What is conventionally called "syntax" is an artifact of the compiler
>> technology (or maybe of specification technology, see below):

> I disagree here.  It is no accident.

Doesn't seem to me that it says it is an accident.

> Same as the split between
> lexical and syntactic analysis, the division between syntax and
> (static) semantics is an engineering issue: specifying a language is a
> fairly large amount of work, so you want to split it into simpler
> parts.

And for that reason, both specification and compiler want to divide
up the problem. There aren't so many convenient places to divide
the work.

Also, I have always thought that BNF didn't distinguish lexical and
syntactical sides of the problem.

When I first learned about BNF, and without any actual compiler
books, I started to figure out how a recursive descent algorithm
would work, but hadn't thought about a separate lexical analyzer.

But I think many languages are designed to separate syntax and
semantics, not only to make the description easier, but intentionally
to make compilers easier to write.

-- glen

[The split makes the code easier to write and easier to read.  You
could since LALR or LL(1) are more powerful than the regex that lex
and its ilk use, you could glom everything in the lexer into the BNF
of the grammar, but it would be huge and unreadable, since every token
definition would be encrusted with all of the optional whitespace and
comments that a lexer has already thrown away.  In the other
direction, you could write many semantic rules in the BNF like what
types can combine with what operators, but ugh. In practice, even
operator precedence BNF rules are ugly enough that we use hacks in
yacc/bison to fake them. -John]

Thread

Formatting of Language LRMs Seima Rao <seimarao@gmail.com> - 2014-06-17 16:54 +0530
  Re: Formatting of Language LRMs "lpsantil@gmail.com" <lpsantil@gmail.com> - 2014-06-20 10:10 -0700
    Re: Formatting of Language LRMs glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-08-03 04:37 +0000
  Re: Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-06-20 12:09 -0700
    Re: Formatting of Language LRMs glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-06-21 02:27 +0000
    Re: Formatting of Language LRMs Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-06-21 03:09 +0000
    Re: Formatting of Language LRMs Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.net.invalid> - 2014-06-22 21:12 -0500
      Re: VWG and K, was Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-06-22 21:47 -0700
      RE: Formatting of Language LRMs "Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org> - 2014-07-03 09:06 +0000
        Re: Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-07-03 22:30 -0700
          Re: syntax checkers, was Formatting of Language LRMs glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-04 17:35 +0000
          Re: executable semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs wclodius@earthlink.net (William Clodius) - 2014-07-04 15:53 -0600
  Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs seimarao@gmail.com - 2014-06-24 02:19 -0700
    Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs "lpsantil@gmail.com" <lpsantil@gmail.com> - 2014-06-24 13:12 -0700
    Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-06-26 00:54 -0400
      Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Andy Walker <news@cuboid.co.uk> - 2014-06-28 20:10 +0100
        Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-06-28 22:43 -0400
          Re: BNF, was specifying semantics wclodius@earthlink.net (William Clodius) - 2014-06-30 22:00 -0600
      Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-06-28 12:25 -0700
        Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Andy Walker <news@cuboid.co.uk> - 2014-06-29 11:19 +0100
        Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-06-29 07:56 -0400
          Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-06-29 11:49 -0700
            Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-06-30 18:09 -0700
              Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-06-30 20:53 -0700
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-07-03 11:51 +0000
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-07-03 22:20 -0700
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics wclodius@earthlink.net (William Clodius) - 2014-07-04 15:52 -0600
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-07 05:49 +0000
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-07-07 10:48 -0700
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-07 19:49 +0000
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-07 19:43 +0000
                Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-03 21:44 -0700
            Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-07-02 09:51 +0000
              Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2014-07-03 10:15 -0400
                Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-04 06:08 +0000
                Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@aol.com> - 2014-07-04 08:51 +0200
                Re: Parsing Fortran, was specifying semantics glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-04 17:53 +0000
                Re: Parsing Fortran, was specifying semantics wclodius@earthlink.net (William Clodius) - 2014-07-04 15:57 -0600
  Re: Formatting of Language LRMs mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2014-06-30 12:04 -0700
  Re: Formatting of Language LRMs federation2005@netzero.com - 2014-07-28 17:55 -0700
    Re: Formatting of Language LRMs federation2005@netzero.com - 2014-08-01 14:58 -0700

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