Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs

From	Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@aol.com>
Newsgroups	comp.compilers
Subject	Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs
Date	2014-07-04 08:51 +0200
Organization	Compilers Central
Message-ID	<14-07-011@comp.compilers> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <14-06-027@comp.compilers> <14-06-030@comp.compilers> <14-06-031@comp.compilers> <14-07-003@comp.compilers> <14-07-006@comp.compilers>

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Stefan Monnier schrieb:
>> What is conventionally called "syntax" is an artifact of the compiler
>> technology (or maybe of specification technology, see below):
>
> I disagree here.  It is no accident.  Same as the split between
> lexical and syntactic analysis, the division between syntax and
> (static) semantics is an engineering issue: specifying a language is a
> fairly large amount of work, so you want to split it into simpler
> parts.

I don't know of any *general* formal description of lexical analysis,
that would allow to e.g. describe Fortran and Algol (or C) lexing at the
same time. In an experiment with an scannerless parser a problem with
whitespace popped up, where whitespace sometimes is required to separate
keywords from identifiers, sometimes is optional:

Fortran: D O I = ...
Pascal:  if  x ...
C:       int i ...

Just in the Fortran example neither a longest nor a shortest match lexer
is a solution. Do we have to exclude Fortran (and C) as context
sensitive languages then? But what would be the benefit of an
description formalism, that only is applicable to new languages, whose
syntax and semantics can (must!) be described using just that formalims?

In the case of the scannerless parser experiment the grammar size
exploded, when the handling of whitespace was added. Also the well known
"dangling else" problem can be solved only at the expense of a bigger
grammar, which then may still be readable by a compiler generator, but
not by humans any more.


Such problems suggest to me that the design of a language starts with
the design of an appropriate description formalism. But which formalism
could be used to describe *that* formalism?

DoDi

[You can scan Fortran with longest match, but the things you're
matching for are very context dependent.  I've done it. I agree that
it's unlikely we'll find a general model for different languages. -John]

Thread

Formatting of Language LRMs Seima Rao <seimarao@gmail.com> - 2014-06-17 16:54 +0530
  Re: Formatting of Language LRMs "lpsantil@gmail.com" <lpsantil@gmail.com> - 2014-06-20 10:10 -0700
    Re: Formatting of Language LRMs glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-08-03 04:37 +0000
  Re: Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-06-20 12:09 -0700
    Re: Formatting of Language LRMs glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-06-21 02:27 +0000
    Re: Formatting of Language LRMs Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-06-21 03:09 +0000
    Re: Formatting of Language LRMs Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.net.invalid> - 2014-06-22 21:12 -0500
      Re: VWG and K, was Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-06-22 21:47 -0700
      RE: Formatting of Language LRMs "Costello, Roger L." <costello@mitre.org> - 2014-07-03 09:06 +0000
        Re: Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-07-03 22:30 -0700
          Re: syntax checkers, was Formatting of Language LRMs glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-04 17:35 +0000
          Re: executable semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs wclodius@earthlink.net (William Clodius) - 2014-07-04 15:53 -0600
  Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs seimarao@gmail.com - 2014-06-24 02:19 -0700
    Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs "lpsantil@gmail.com" <lpsantil@gmail.com> - 2014-06-24 13:12 -0700
    Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-06-26 00:54 -0400
      Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Andy Walker <news@cuboid.co.uk> - 2014-06-28 20:10 +0100
        Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-06-28 22:43 -0400
          Re: BNF, was specifying semantics wclodius@earthlink.net (William Clodius) - 2014-06-30 22:00 -0600
      Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-06-28 12:25 -0700
        Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Andy Walker <news@cuboid.co.uk> - 2014-06-29 11:19 +0100
        Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-06-29 07:56 -0400
          Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-06-29 11:49 -0700
            Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-06-30 18:09 -0700
              Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-06-30 20:53 -0700
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-07-03 11:51 +0000
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-07-03 22:20 -0700
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics wclodius@earthlink.net (William Clodius) - 2014-07-04 15:52 -0600
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-07 05:49 +0000
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics Ivan Godard <ivan@ootbcomp.com> - 2014-07-07 10:48 -0700
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-07 19:49 +0000
                Re: Algol history, was specifying semantics glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-07 19:43 +0000
                Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-07-03 21:44 -0700
            Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-07-02 09:51 +0000
              Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2014-07-03 10:15 -0400
                Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-04 06:08 +0000
                Re: specifying semantics, was Formatting of Language LRMs Hans-Peter Diettrich <DrDiettrich1@aol.com> - 2014-07-04 08:51 +0200
                Re: Parsing Fortran, was specifying semantics glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-07-04 17:53 +0000
                Re: Parsing Fortran, was specifying semantics wclodius@earthlink.net (William Clodius) - 2014-07-04 15:57 -0600
  Re: Formatting of Language LRMs mertesthomas@gmail.com - 2014-06-30 12:04 -0700
  Re: Formatting of Language LRMs federation2005@netzero.com - 2014-07-28 17:55 -0700
    Re: Formatting of Language LRMs federation2005@netzero.com - 2014-08-01 14:58 -0700

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