Re: .5 against 0.5f

From	cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: .5 against 0.5f
Date	2026-10-30 10:58 +0000
Organization	PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID	<11c1t8r$f9b$1@reader2.panix.com> (permalink)
References	<11bpvs7$1e6kc$2@dont-email.me> <11bvqbn$3g0tj$1@dont-email.me> <11c07vf$lhk$1@reader2.panix.com> <11c0kst$3pmvb$2@kst.eternal-september.org>

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In article <11c0kst$3pmvb$2@kst.eternal-september.org>,
Keith Thompson  <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:
>> In article <11bvqbn$3g0tj$1@dont-email.me>,
>> James Kuyper  <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>>[snip]
>>>They can lead to people thinking that return is a function, even if they
>>>nominally know better.
>>
>> What?  This is an incredibly weak argument.
>>
>> If someone thought that `return` was a function, then why
>> wouldn't they think that `if` or `while` were also functions?
>> Or `sizeof`, and so on?
>
>I agree that it's a bit of a weak argument, but I wouldn't call it
>incredibly weak.
>
>In my personal coding style, I try to avoid making things that are not
>function calls look like function calls.  In a function call, there's no
>space between the function name and the left parenthesis.  I don't use
>that style for anything other than function calls (or invocations of
>function-like macros).  Not because I don't know return and sizeof are
>keywords, but because it's just a little bit easier to read the code
>if distinctions like that are clear.
>[snip examples]

If I may paraphrase your argument, it's that you like to omit
parentheses where unnecessary, or otherwise make operators
visually distinct from function calls, so that while scanning
code they stand out.

But that is qualitatively different than what Kuyper said: "They
can lead to people thinking that return is a function", which is
ridiculous.  Anyone even passingly familiar with the language
knows that `return` in C is not a function, parentheses or no.

>[snip]
>The premise (at least for me) is not that someone would *think*
>that return is a function, but that making a return statement not
>look too much like a function call makes the code just a little
>bit easier to read.

Perhaps; perhaps not.  My day job involes working on a variant
of System V Unix, which has a very strict style guide similar to
(but different from...) FreeBSD's.  That guide is descended from
a document Bill Shannon put together at Sun for code in the
older, BSD-derived SunOS 4.x operating system; a few years ago,
another engineer and I took that document, cleaned it up,
updated it to reflect existing practice, reorganized it a bit
to logically flow better, and published it as a man page:
https://illumos.org/man/7/style

There are many things in there that I do not personally like;
mandatory parentheses around the expression in a `return` are
among them, but also the outright ban on `//` comments, macros
over inline functions, and so on.  I hold my nose and follow it
because that's a requirement of the job.  *Shrug*

But sometimes I am very surprised at what my colleagues find
unreadable; recently I wrote a rather large driver for an IP in
our SoC complexes, and among the things that driver does are
allocating physical address space to MMIO.  The internal
function one calls to do such things takes a number of
arguments, including a pointer to an attributes structure, an
address, a size, flags, and so on.  I had neatly grouped the
arguments onto lines so that, for example, the pointer to the
attributes structure was on one line, then a line break and then
the address and size together by themselves on the next line,
etc.  The reviewer (who's been working in this source base for
several decades) found that very difficult to read and asked me
to fill the lines as much as I could, up to the 80-column
maximum (another limit I find silly); ironically, I found that
much more difficult to read.

The point is, "readability" can be subjective.  What one person
finds easy to read may not be so for another.

>And in the example that started this subthread, I probably wouldn't
>have mentioned the parentheses if the poster hadn't been complaining
>about "fluff".

Yeah, that's fair.  The poster seems unnecessarily combative in
a weird way.

	- Dan C.

Thread

.5 against 0.5f fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 11:53 +0100
  Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-27 17:45 +0000
    Re: .5 against 0.5f fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 18:50 +0100
      Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-27 19:01 +0000
        Re: .5 against 0.5f fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 20:15 +0100
          Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-27 19:54 +0000
            Re: .5 against 0.5f "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 13:10 -0700
              Re: .5 against 0.5f steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 02:20 -0400
            Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-27 21:35 +0100
            Re: .5 against 0.5f James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-10-27 18:00 -0400
              Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-27 22:15 +0000
              Re: .5 against 0.5f Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-28 06:54 -0700
          Re: .5 against 0.5f fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 21:57 +0100
            Re: .5 against 0.5f "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 14:18 -0700
          Re: .5 against 0.5f steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 02:19 -0400
            Re: .5 against 0.5f Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-28 21:54 +0000
              Re: .5 against 0.5f "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 14:58 -0700
      Re: .5 against 0.5f steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 02:11 -0400
        Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 23:21 -0700
    Re: .5 against 0.5f scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-27 18:40 +0000
      Re: .5 against 0.5f Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-27 12:29 -0700
        Re: .5 against 0.5f "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 13:11 -0700
          Re: .5 against 0.5f "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 13:25 -0700
      Re: .5 against 0.5f Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-27 21:43 +0200
        Re: .5 against 0.5f Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-27 22:05 +0200
          Re: .5 against 0.5f Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-27 22:51 +0200
      Re: .5 against 0.5f Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-10-27 20:05 +0000
        Re: .5 against 0.5f bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-10-27 21:03 +0000
        Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 15:41 -0700
          Re: .5 against 0.5f scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-28 16:23 +0000
      Re: .5 against 0.5f steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 02:25 -0400
      Re: .5 against 0.5f makendo <makendo@makendo.invalid> - 2026-10-29 18:04 +0800
        Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 05:01 -0700
          Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-29 13:55 +0100
            Re: .5 against 0.5f bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-10-29 14:32 +0000
          Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-29 23:19 +0100
        Re: .5 against 0.5f Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-30 00:50 +0000
          Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-30 05:01 +0100
            Re: .5 against 0.5f "chine.bleu" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-30 02:39 -0700
              Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-30 11:06 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-30 11:12 -0700
              Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-30 14:07 +0100
            Re: .5 against 0.5f scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-30 13:55 +0000
              Re: .5 against 0.5f "chine.bleu" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-30 07:45 -0700
          Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 21:17 -0700
    Re: .5 against 0.5f Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-10-27 19:58 +0000
    Re: .5 against 0.5f James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-10-27 17:43 -0400
      Re: .5 against 0.5f James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-10-27 18:06 -0400
        Re: .5 against 0.5f Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-28 00:49 +0000
          Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 18:23 -0700
            Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-28 16:38 +0100
              Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 13:27 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-29 00:08 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 16:56 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-29 18:55 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-29 09:30 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 04:54 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-29 19:57 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-29 20:56 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-29 23:06 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-29 13:39 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 16:56 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-30 04:38 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-30 09:11 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-30 14:54 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-30 15:25 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-30 14:45 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-30 12:02 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-30 21:01 +0100
          Re: .5 against 0.5f James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-10-27 21:41 -0400
            Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-28 08:45 +0100
          Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-28 01:50 +0000
            Re: .5 against 0.5f fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 07:32 +0100
              Re: .5 against 0.5f fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 07:51 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 07:55 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-28 16:27 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-28 17:44 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-28 16:22 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 19:15 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 19:47 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-28 19:10 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 13:31 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-28 22:44 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-29 00:27 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 16:39 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-29 00:22 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-28 17:59 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-29 01:50 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-29 10:45 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-29 14:56 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-29 16:34 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-29 15:47 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-30 01:17 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 16:46 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-10-29 11:56 -0400
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-29 17:57 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 16:06 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-30 00:21 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-29 19:49 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-29 22:55 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 16:29 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-30 03:57 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 20:53 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-30 05:06 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-30 09:33 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-30 10:58 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-29 23:46 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-29 18:37 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-30 04:22 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-29 17:58 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-29 15:42 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-30 01:27 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f "Steven G. Kargl" <sgk@REMOVEtroutmask.apl.washington.edu> - 2026-10-30 02:08 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 19:37 -0700
          Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-28 08:39 +0100
            Re: .5 against 0.5f Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-28 22:25 +0200
              Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-29 10:48 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-29 04:59 -0700
            Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 14:26 -0700
              Re: .5 against 0.5f Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-29 00:12 +0200
                Re: .5 against 0.5f bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-10-28 22:33 +0000
                Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-29 11:01 +0100
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 16:05 -0700
                Re: .5 against 0.5f Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-30 11:58 +0200
                Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-29 10:59 +0100
            Re: .5 against 0.5f "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 14:34 -0700
              Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-29 11:06 +0100
          Re: .5 against 0.5f tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2026-10-28 15:08 +0100
            Re: .5 against 0.5f Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-28 07:49 -0700
          Re: .5 against 0.5f "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-28 14:36 -0700
      Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 15:53 -0700
        Re: .5 against 0.5f James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-10-27 21:55 -0400
          Re: .5 against 0.5f Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 19:02 -0700
        Re: .5 against 0.5f David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-28 08:56 +0100
      Re: .5 against 0.5f Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-28 08:01 -0700
  Re: .5 against 0.5f "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-27 13:08 -0700

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