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Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise

From cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise
Date 2026-10-15 14:25 +0000
Organization PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID <11aqnp0$sb$1@reader2.panix.com> (permalink)
References <86ece2kppv.fsf@linuxsc.com> <11amvh2$14pou$3@kst.eternal-september.org> <11ao2mr$4l9$1@reader2.panix.com> <11ap0fo$1t8gq$2@kst.eternal-september.org>

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In article <11ap0fo$1t8gq$2@kst.eternal-september.org>,
Keith Thompson  <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:
>> In article <11amvh2$14pou$3@kst.eternal-september.org>,
>> Keith Thompson  <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>[snip]
>>>So "a fundamental alignment requirement" and "size less than or equal
>>>to the size requested" are parallel requirements, both applying to
>>>the type of the pointed-to object.
>>
>> That is one of the two reasonable interpretations.  The other is
>> that the requirements placed on size and fundamental alignment
>> of the pointer type are cumulative and dependent on the size of
>> the allocation.  If so, then nothing in the C standard prevents
>> an implementation from from returning a pointer aligned to
>> `alignof(char)` for `malloc(1)`.
>
>I do see the parsing ambiguity now.
>
>I believe that's consistent with the way I parsed it.  A successful
>malloc(1) returns a value that can be assigned to a pointer of type
>char*, which points to the object type "char", which does have (a
>fundamental alignment requirement) and (a size less than or equal
>to the size requested).

Right, but I think it's a bit deeper than that.

Somewhat informally, the C17 wording could be read as requiring
that the pointer returned from `malloc` must be suitable for
assignment to any pointer to a type with `alignof(max_align_t)`
regardless of the requested size, which might be smaller.  N2293
calls this the, '"strong-alignment" reading.'

Under that reading, even if the requested size can't hold an
object of a type with a stricter fundamental alignment
requirement because it's too small, the return value from malloc
is artificially constrained so that the pointer refers to an
address that is aligned to `alignof(max_align_t)`.  For example,
an x86_64 implementation following the System V ABI would always
return a pointer to an address aligned on a 16-byte boundary,
even for `malloc(1)`.

The N2293 wording adopted in C23 says that that need not be the
case.  An implementation can choose to return a pointer that is
more strictly aligned for a small allocation (internally, lots
of `malloc`s have some minimum allocation size that is greater
than `sizeof(max_align_t)` and return all pointers aligned to
whatever that is), but it does not have to (e.g., in some
applications space is at a premium, so small allocations might
be handled specially).

>[snip]
>If you allow an object type to have an alignment greater than its
>size, then the ambiguity can result in an actual difference in the
>requirements.  But then arrays don't work.

That's ok; this is only about the properties vis alignment of
the pointer returned from malloc.  Consider x86_64 with the
System V ABI again or ARM64 with the AAPCS; suppose that
`char *p = malloc(char[3]);` assigns a non-NULL ponter to `p`.
The question is only whether or not the address `p` refers to is
required to be aligned on a 16-byte boundary; under the
'"strong-alignment" reading' in N2293, it is, even though the
allocated size is only 3.  Under the '"weak-alignment" reading',
the return address can aligned on an even boundary, and C23
codified the weak-alignment reading.  Note that neither reading
says anything  about the size of elements or their alignment in
an allocation that is treated like an array; it only affects
the alignment of the starting address.

N2293 mentions this, but it probably bears repeating here: the
utility of forcing `malloc` to align small allocations to e.g.,
`alignof(max_align_t)` seems mostly restricted to having some
hope of overloading the low bits of the returned address for
some program-specific purpose, which is how this came up in the
first place in this thread.  As has already been mentioned, the
standard makes no guarnatee about the integer representation of
addresses, so this is already somewhat fraught, but on many
platforms we may assume that as a practical matter, for a
pointer to a suitably aligned address, those bits will be clear
as a practical matter; I suppose if one wants that for a small
allocation, use `aligned_alloc`.  Caveat emptor.

>> Btw, this kind of ambiguity is the primary objection I have to
>> attempts at using informal English prose to precisely define a
>> programming language.
>
>I'm not sure that anything other than English (or other human
>language) prose would be a practical way to define C.  There have
>been attempts to define formal semantics for C, but they haven't
>caught on.

Yeah.  For C, I think that it would be nearly impossible to
retrofit onto the language at this point.  I have high hopes for
Rust, but folks I've spoken to who have been active in the Rust
formal methods interesting group seem pessimistic about a
formally defined semantics, which is a shame.

	- Dan C.

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AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-06 23:08 -0700
  Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-07 15:25 +0200
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-07 12:13 -0700
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-07 21:28 +0200
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-08 05:31 -0700
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-09 11:12 +0200
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-09 11:12 +0200
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-10-07 20:10 -0500
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-08 05:56 -0700
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-10-08 15:09 -0500
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-08 22:56 +0200
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-10-08 17:29 -0500
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-09 09:56 +0200
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-09 01:39 +0200
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-09 00:03 -0700
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-08 23:53 -0700
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-09 10:34 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-09 12:27 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-09 12:59 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-10-09 11:43 +0100
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-09 13:20 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-09 12:38 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-09 16:05 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-09 17:54 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-10 10:38 +0800
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-10 03:12 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-10 04:44 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-10 14:12 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-09 19:48 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-09 23:18 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-10 15:27 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-12 18:26 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-12 21:17 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-09 17:47 +0300
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-09 16:48 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-10 19:08 +0300
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-10 18:29 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-10 17:44 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-10 23:22 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-10 17:43 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-10 20:35 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-10 19:36 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-10 22:08 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-10 23:21 +0300
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-10 20:55 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-10 20:22 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-10 23:32 +0300
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-11 15:24 +0000
  Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2026-10-10 19:40 +0200
  Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-10-10 12:39 -0700
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-10 23:00 +0300
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-10 22:28 +0200
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-10 19:02 -0700
  Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "chine.bleu" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-13 01:38 -0700
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-13 11:42 +0200
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-13 10:55 +0000
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 04:29 -0700
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-13 14:01 +0200
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 05:09 -0700
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-10-13 19:01 +0000
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-13 15:17 +0000
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-13 17:39 +0200
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-13 09:01 -0700
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-13 21:17 +0000
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "chine.bleu" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-13 18:01 -0700
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 21:13 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-14 09:43 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-14 20:11 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 15:25 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-15 09:28 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-14 14:13 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-14 18:03 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-14 18:21 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 15:42 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-15 14:25 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-15 15:54 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-10-15 23:51 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-15 18:14 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-16 03:09 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-15 21:34 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-14 10:39 -0700
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-13 17:15 +0000
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-13 21:30 +0000
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "chine.bleu" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-13 08:19 -0700
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 13:16 -0700
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-13 23:28 +0300
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-10-13 06:20 -0400
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-13 14:34 +0000
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 20:45 -0700
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-14 14:25 +0000
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-14 20:54 -0700
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 22:47 -0700
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-15 04:42 -0700
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-15 14:07 -0700
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-13 03:52 -0700

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