Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise

From	cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise
Date	2026-10-14 14:13 +0000
Organization	PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID	<11ao2mr$4l9$1@reader2.panix.com> (permalink)
References	<86ece2kppv.fsf@linuxsc.com> <86v775h9o2.fsf@linuxsc.com> <11am74c$54g$1@reader2.panix.com> <11amvh2$14pou$3@kst.eternal-september.org>

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In article <11amvh2$14pou$3@kst.eternal-september.org>,
Keith Thompson  <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:
>> In article <86v775h9o2.fsf@linuxsc.com>,
>> Tim Rentsch  <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
>>>cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:
>[...]
>>>> I don't think this is true anymore, as of C23.  Here's the
>>>> relevant text from n3220, sec 7.24.3, describing the return
>>>> value from `malloc` et al:
>>>>
>>>> |The pointer returned if the allocation succeeds is suitably
>>>> |aligned so that it may be assigned to a pointer to any type of
>>>> |object with a fundamental alignment requirement and size less
>>>> |than or equal to the size requested.
>>>>
>>>> This sentence is somewhat ambiguous because it's unclear whether
>>>> the "less than or equal to the size requested" criteria applies
>>>> to both the pointer type's size _and_ fundamental alignment
>>>> requirement, or _just_ the size, [...]
>>>
>>>It's poorly constructed but in English it has only one
>>>grammatical parse.
>>
>> Nope.  Not even close.
>
>I think Tim is right about there being only one grammatical parse.

No, he is not.  There are over a thousand ways to parse that
sentence "grammatically", according to the "standard" rules of
the English language (a language infamous for having little in
the way of standard rules).

We tend to discount those since we're close to the domain, but
ask a linguist what they think about this sentence and they will
point out ambiguities.  Or use a tool like spaCy to visualize
the parse trees (from which one can see that those ambiguities
lead to a combinatorial explosion of valid parses).

Fortunately, most of these have overlapping meanings, and there
are only two potentially meaningful interpretations, one where
the size requirement of the request attaches only to the size of
the pointed-to type, or one where it attaches to both the size
and fundamental alignment requirement of the pointed-to type.

>I'll try to use indentation to indicate (imperfectly) how I parse it:
>
>The pointer returned if the allocation succeeds
>    is suitably aligned so that
>        it may be assigned to a pointer to any type of object
>            with
>                    a fundamental alignment requirement
>                and·
>                    size less than or equal to the size requested.
>
>So "a fundamental alignment requirement" and "size less than or equal
>to the size requested" are parallel requirements, both applying to
>the type of the pointed-to object.

That is one of the two reasonable interpretations.  The other is
that the requirements placed on size and fundamental alignment
of the pointer type are cumulative and dependent on the size of
the allocation.  If so, then nothing in the C standard prevents
an implementation from from returning a pointer aligned to
`alignof(char)` for `malloc(1)`.

>I do see a problem with the size requirement being *under* the
>"suitably aligned" requirement.  It wrongly implies that satisfying
>the size requirement contributes to the "suitably aligned" requirement.
>But that's not an ambiguous parse.
>
>Do you see a different way to parse the sentence?

Adopting your notation, the other meaningful way is

If the allocation succeeds:
  The pointer returned is suitably aligned so that:
    It may be asigned to a pointer to any type of object with:
      a fundamental alignment requirement _and_ size,
      less than or equal to the size requested.

This is a grammatically valid parse of that sentence.  Given the
existence of `aligned_alloc`, I can't think of a great reason
why this second interpretation should be prohibited; there are
esoteric hardware structures that do things like align 32-bit
registers on 128-bit boundaries (e.g., the MMIO registers for
the x86 xAPIC), but pointers to those are not the domain of
`malloc`.

Btw, this kind of ambiguity is the primary objection I have to
attempts at using informal English prose to precisely define a
programming language.

	- Dan C.

Thread

AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-06 23:08 -0700
  Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-07 15:25 +0200
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-07 12:13 -0700
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-07 21:28 +0200
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-08 05:31 -0700
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-09 11:12 +0200
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-09 11:12 +0200
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-10-07 20:10 -0500
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-08 05:56 -0700
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-10-08 15:09 -0500
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-08 22:56 +0200
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-10-08 17:29 -0500
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-10-09 09:56 +0200
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-09 01:39 +0200
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-09 00:03 -0700
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-08 23:53 -0700
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-09 10:34 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-09 12:27 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-09 12:59 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-10-09 11:43 +0100
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-09 13:20 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-09 12:38 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-09 16:05 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-09 17:54 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-10 10:38 +0800
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-10 03:12 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-10 04:44 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-10 14:12 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-09 19:48 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-09 23:18 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-10 15:27 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-12 18:26 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-12 21:17 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-09 17:47 +0300
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-09 16:48 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-10 19:08 +0300
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-10 18:29 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-10 17:44 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-10 23:22 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-10 17:43 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-10 20:35 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-10 19:36 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-10 22:08 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-10 23:21 +0300
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-10 20:55 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-10 20:22 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-10 23:32 +0300
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-11 15:24 +0000
  Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2026-10-10 19:40 +0200
  Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Andrey Tarasevich <noone@noone.net> - 2026-10-10 12:39 -0700
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-10 23:00 +0300
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-10 22:28 +0200
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-10 19:02 -0700
  Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "chine.bleu" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-13 01:38 -0700
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-13 11:42 +0200
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-13 10:55 +0000
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 04:29 -0700
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-13 14:01 +0200
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 05:09 -0700
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-10-13 19:01 +0000
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-13 15:17 +0000
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-13 17:39 +0200
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-13 09:01 -0700
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-13 21:17 +0000
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "chine.bleu" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-13 18:01 -0700
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 21:13 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-14 09:43 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-14 20:11 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 15:25 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-10-15 09:28 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-14 14:13 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-10-14 18:03 +0200
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-14 18:21 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 15:42 -0700
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-15 14:25 +0000
                Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-14 10:39 -0700
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-13 17:15 +0000
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-13 21:30 +0000
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "chine.bleu" <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-13 08:19 -0700
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 13:16 -0700
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-13 23:28 +0300
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-10-13 06:20 -0400
      Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-13 14:34 +0000
        Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 20:45 -0700
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-14 14:25 +0000
          Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-14 20:54 -0700
            Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 22:47 -0700
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-15 04:42 -0700
              Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-15 14:07 -0700
    Re: AVL tree insertion - programming exercise Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-10-13 03:52 -0700

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