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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #234571
| From | cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | alt.folklore.computers |
| Subject | Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 |
| Date | 2026-04-02 10:53 +0000 |
| Organization | PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC |
| Message-ID | <10qlhro$in4$2@reader2.panix.com> (permalink) |
| References | <10qehuo$2nu4m$1@dont-email.me> <10qh8ar$3otrd$1@paganini.bofh.team> <10qhbud$700$2@gal.iecc.com> <10qk9ea$6jl0$1@paganini.bofh.team> |
In article <10qk9ea$6jl0$1@paganini.bofh.team>, Waldek Hebisch <antispam@fricas.org> wrote: >John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote: >> According to Waldek Hebisch <antispam@fricas.org>: >>>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote: >>>> According to David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>: >>>>>> The TSS/360 story is new to me. Twenty users on a 360/67 and it >>>>>> struggled? How much of that was the large-team bloat you're describing >>>>>> versus actual architectural problems? >>>>>> >>>>>Not sure, do you mean the software architecture of TSS or the Hardware >>>>>architecture of the 360/67. I at Newcastle Uni (UK) I think they/we >>>>>managed more users than that with reasonable response time on a 360/67. >>>> >>>> A combination of overeager software architecture and implementation. >>>> CP/67 and MTS both got good performance from the same hardware. >>> >>>AFAICS main factor was that TSS/360 was too big, which left too >>>little core for users which lead to intensive paging when one >>>tried to increase number of users. Also, VM quite early got >>>good paging algorithm, other IBM systems used worse algorithms >>>and improved them only later. >> >> That was certainly part of it. It was also quite buggy, with the bugginess >> inversely proportional to how heavily used a component was. The file system >> worked pretty well but I gather magtape support didn't. >> >>>In a sense one can say that TSS/360 was ahead of it times: on >>>bigger machine smaller fraction of machine would be occupied >>>by system code so memory available for user whould be significantly >>>bigger. IIUC already on 2MB machine TSS/360 behaved much better. >> >> Well, there's a rule of thumb that the way you get good performance from >> a paging system is to have enough RAM that you don't have to page. > >To explain more what I mean: if one have 1MB machine and OS takes >800 kB for itself, then one has about 200 kB for user programs. >If OS takes 400 kB, then one has about 600 kB for user programs. >I this case smaller system effectively has 3 times more memory >available for user programs. On 2 MB machine (assuming the same >OS use) ratio is closer to 4/3, still giving advantage to smaller >system, but this advantage is much smaller. Relatedly, I saw a talk recently by an English gent where he talked about a similar phenomenon: if you're driving somewhere and you're going 20 MPH (or KPH, if you prefer; the important thing here is the ratio, not the unit) then incresing speed by 10 MPH to 30 is a significant different and makes a measurable difference in your arrival time at your destination. On the other hand, if you're doing 80, then increasing speed by 10 to 90 is almost immeasurable and just (in his words) "makes you a dickhead." Well, I thought it was funny. - Dan C.
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Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> - 2026-03-30 19:12 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:01 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:02 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 00:44 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-31 19:46 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 20:48 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-01 23:23 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-02 10:53 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-02 07:29 -0700
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-04-02 16:58 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:34 +0000
Re: TSS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:53 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 21:01 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-03 16:53 -1000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 03:57 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-04 07:37 -0700
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-04 21:55 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-04 15:48 -0700
Re: ancient time sharingSelf-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-05 02:27 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 22:03 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 12:31 -1000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 07:40 -1000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-04-04 13:44 -0700
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 (VSCP) ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2026-04-05 20:23 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-04 12:53 -1000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-04 23:44 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-04-05 09:29 +0100
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-05 19:22 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-05 14:30 -1000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-05 20:02 -0700
history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 09:05 -0300
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 16:49 +0200
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-11 15:58 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 13:38 -0300
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 19:41 +0200
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-11 19:18 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-11 21:27 +0200
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-11 21:13 +0000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:47 -1000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-13 15:02 -0700
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:27 -0700
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 15:11 -1000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:19 +0000
Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-13 14:56 -0700
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:10 +0000
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-09-15 05:46 -0700
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-15 07:51 -0700
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:22 +0000
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:13 +0000
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-09-15 16:48 +0200
Re: Computes at CERN (Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX ) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-15 08:19 -0700
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:13 -1000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 14:12 -1000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-13 14:02 -0300
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 18:55 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 19:03 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-13 19:07 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:21 -0700
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-14 00:37 +0100
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 20:56 -0700
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-09-14 04:12 +0000
Re: history of ASCII and IBM ratfucking, and the VAX (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 15:06 -1000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-06 01:42 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-05 20:05 -0700
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-06 07:03 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-05 22:19 -1000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-06 08:20 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-06 12:03 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-06 07:30 -0700
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-06 07:39 -1000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-06 12:05 -0700
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-04-06 17:41 -1000
position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-11 09:42 -0300
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-12 15:12 -1000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 01:57 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-12 21:14 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2026-09-17 17:06 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-17 17:56 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2026-09-18 14:08 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-18 19:29 +0100
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-18 12:00 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-09-18 20:35 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Andy Valencia <vandys@vsta.org> - 2026-09-17 11:32 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-13 07:31 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 07:45 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 16:50 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:18 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 04:21 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-15 14:33 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-15 07:37 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-15 23:35 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2026-09-14 14:41 -1000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 01:54 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-13 14:53 -0300
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-09-13 22:18 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-13 16:24 -0700
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-14 01:51 +0000
Re: position-independent code (was Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-09-14 14:53 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-04-06 19:21 +0000
Re: CMS, Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-04-06 21:25 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-31 02:32 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-31 04:06 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-31 08:52 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-31 18:07 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-30 13:51 -0700
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 00:58 +0000
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-31 07:35 -0700
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-03-31 14:54 +0000
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-31 13:01 -0700
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:14 +0000
Re: TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-03-31 22:32 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 02:06 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 09:53 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-01 16:07 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 16:27 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 16:10 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-01 17:15 +0100
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2026-04-01 16:28 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-01 16:48 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-04-01 17:44 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-01 14:21 -0700
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-01 20:40 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-01 22:02 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-02 15:28 +0100
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-02 15:36 +0000
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2026-04-02 17:15 +0100
Re: linkers, TSS arcana, Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-02 16:44 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-30 21:30 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-03-30 23:28 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-30 23:36 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-31 07:46 -0700
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-31 15:54 +0100
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 19:03 +0000
Re: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-31 01:04 +0000
Re: VM history, was Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:17 +0000
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-30 15:36 -0700
Re: Self-hosting and the 6502 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-03-31 22:19 +0000
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