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Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God

From "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God
Date 2026-01-03 22:06 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <10jc08f$1hm2m$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <mrmsvjFeekoU3@mid.individual.net> <10j5sqg$3gisd$1@dont-email.me> <10j721n$1i2q$1@gwaiyur.mb-net.net> <10j8jms$eugq$1@dont-email.me> <10j8okd$7d4a$1@gwaiyur.mb-net.net>

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Den 02.01.2026 16:35, skrev Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:
> Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
>> Den 02.01.2026 01:04, skrev Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:
>>> Paul.B.Andersen wrote:
>>>> There is no way the atom bomb could be invented from the equation E = mc².
>>> That is not true.
>>
>> Yes, it is.
> 
> No, it is not
> 
>> According to Google's AI:
> 
> LOL.  "Google" is not a source; "Google's AI" is even less than that.
> 
>> "Nuclear fission was discovered by German chemists Otto Hahn
>>    and Fritz Strassmann in late 1938, who observed uranium nuclei
>>    splitting into lighter elements like barium when bombarded with
>>    neutrons, with physicists Lise Meitner and Otto Frisch providing
>>    the theoretical explanation and coining the term "fission"
>>    shortly after, revealing the massive energy release. Hahn
>>    received the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1944 for the discovery,
>>    though Meitner's crucial role in understanding the process is
>>    now widely recognized.
>>
>> Fermi was the first who, in 1934, bombarded uranium atoms with
>> neutrons and observed that strange things happened, but he didn't
>> understand that the uranium atom was split.

These are facts you cannot laugh away.

>>
>> The point is that the fission was not discovered because
>> someone thought that since E = mc², it must be possible
>> to release energy by splitting atom.
> 
> Non sequitur.  We were not discussing just nuclear fission, but *the
> creation of an atomic bomb*: an *uncontrolled* nuclear fission reaction,
> possibly induced by nuclear fusion, *designed* to cause destruction.

So the discovery of nuclear fission and the fact
that ≈ 200 MeV kinetic energy is realised when
a U-235 atom is hit by a neutron and split in two, is
irrelevant to the creation of the fission atomic bomb? :-D

The idea that "nuclear fission reaction, possibly [is]
induced by nuclear fusion" is rather weird. Typo?
You must know that in a H-bomb it is the other way around.

> 
>> But when the fission was discovered, Lisa Meitner realised
>> that the released energy could be explained by E = mc².
> 
> q.e.d.

Right.
Before 1938 nobody knew that atoms could be split.
I don't know why Otto Hahn and Fritz Strassmann
bombard U-235 with neutrons in 1938, but they did not
expect the atom to split. However, when they found
that barium was produced, they understood that the atom
was split in two roughly equally sized nuclei.
But they didn't know that a lot of energy was released.
It was Lise Meitner who found the theoretical explanation
for the fission.

The fission was not discovered because someone thought
that since E = mc², it must be possible to release energy
by splitting atoms.
q.e.d.

> 
>>> The relation of rest energy and mass, which was
>>> subsequently confirmed using radioactivity, as Einstein had suggested in his
>>> paper, gave a hint that a lot of energy is contained in matter, given the
>>> magnitude of c².

Sure.

Einstein wrote:
"It is not impossible that with bodies whose energy-content
  is variable to a high degree (e.g. with radium salts)
  the theory may be successfully put to the test.
  If the theory [E = mc²] corresponds to the facts, radiation
  conveys inertia between the emitting and absorbing bodies."

The sources of radioactive radiation at that time (pre 1905)
were radium salts and uranium salts. In natural decay
an alpha (He-4 nucleus), a beta (electron) or a gamma (photon)
particle is spontaneously emitted from the nucleus.
By 1905 this radiation was well known, but where the kinetic
energy in the radiation came from was a great mystery.

Einstein thought he had the answer, and he was right.

The energy released in natural decay is quite modest, and
nobody thought it could be used to make an atomic bomb.
Which it could not.

In nuclear fission of U-235 the nucleus is split in two
roughly equal sized nuclei, which will repel each other
very strongly and thus release a vast amount of energy.

Nuclear fission of U-235 does not happen spontaneous,
it is induced by the bombardment of neutrons. And since
neutrons are emitted in the fission, the idea that it
might be possible to make a chain reaction is not
far-fetched.

It was the discovery of fission that lead to the to
the atomic fission bomb.

Nuclear fission of uranium was not discovered because
someone thought that since E = mc², it must be possible
to release energy by splitting atoms.

>>>> And Alfred Nobel had never heard of E = mc² when he
>>>> invented dynamite. But the detonation of dynamite
>>>> is another proof of mass converted to energy.
>>>
>>> No, rest energy is not converted to other forms of energy there.
>>> These explosions are merely *chemical* reactions.
> 
> LOL.

Are you laughing because you have realised that the following
facts confirm my statement?

> 
>>    "In chemical detonations, such as the explosion of dynamite
>>     or TNT, mass is reduced due to the release of energy,
>>     consistent with Einstein's equation E = mc².
>>     The energy released — manifested as heat, light, and sound —
>>     originates from the chemical potential energy stored in molecular
>>     bonds, which is a form of bound energy equivalent to mass."

This statement is correct.

>>
>> This was well known long before fission was known.
> 
> The latter statement was, but not the entirety of this generated answer, as
> you confirmed yourself.

??

>>
>> In 1939 she wrote:
>> Disintegration of Uranium by Neutrons: A New Type of Nuclear Reaction
>> ======================================================================
>>    https://www.atomicarchive.com/resources/documents/beginnings/nature_meitner.html
>>
>> I quote:
>>    "It seems therefore possible that the uranium nucleus has
>>     only small stability of form, and may, after neutron capture,
>>     divide itself into two nuclei of roughly equal size
>>     (the precise ratio of sizes depending on finer structural
>>     features and perhaps partly on chance). These two nuclei
>>     will repel each other and should gain a total kinetic energy
>>     of c. 200 MeV., as calculated from nuclear radius and charge."
>>
>> Note that she calculated the energy released in the fission
>> by calculating the kinetic energy of the two nuclei  which
>> repelled each other. And her calculation was quite correct.

I quote on:
  "This amount of energy may actually be expected to be
   available from the difference in packing fraction between
   uranium and the elements in the middle of the periodic system.

The "packing fraction" is related to mass defect. It was known
from chemistry that when molecules were divided, the mass of
the parts (molecules, atoms) could be less than the mass of the
molecule that was divided. This is what happens in detonation
of dynamite or TNT.

>> Meitner realised that the packing fraction also could be used
>> to find the mass defect in the fission.
>> That this mass defect would release "this amount of energy"
>> 200 MeV could only be because she used E = mc².
> 
> That is my understanding as well; see also the depiction of Meitner's
> discovery in David Bodanis' popular-scientific book "E = mc²", and the
> biographical made-for-TV movie "Einstein's Big Idea" that was based on it:
> 
> <https://www.davidbodanis.com/books/e-mc-2-einstein>
> 


-- 
Paul

https://paulba.no/

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Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-12-29 09:57 +0100
  Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God jojo <f00@0f0.00f> - 2025-12-29 13:53 +0000
    Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-30 02:16 +0100
      Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God jojo <f00@0f0.00f> - 2025-12-30 15:29 +0000
    Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2025-12-30 10:30 +0100
  Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-29 10:23 -0800
    Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God jojo <f00@0f0.00f> - 2025-12-30 15:32 +0000
      Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-12-30 10:05 -0800
        Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God jojo <f00@0f0.00f> - 2025-12-30 20:02 +0000
          Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-30 13:22 -0800
            Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-12-30 17:07 -0800
              Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God jojo <f00@0f0.00f> - 2025-12-31 15:16 +0000
          Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-12-30 17:06 -0800
          Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2025-12-31 05:15 +0100
            Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2025-12-31 09:48 -0800
              Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-01 06:27 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-01 10:30 -0800
        Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-30 23:57 -0800
          Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-01 10:34 +0100
            Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2026-01-01 14:30 +0100
              Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-02 01:04 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-02 02:12 -0800
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-02 02:27 -0800
                Mass--energy equivalence (was: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-02 16:55 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-02 09:35 -0800
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-03 08:14 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Python <python@cccp.invalid> - 2026-01-03 08:30 +0000
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-03 11:30 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-01-03 12:54 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-03 16:41 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-03 20:48 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-03 21:59 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-03 22:02 +0100
                Mass--energy equivalence (was: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-03 16:42 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-03 20:48 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-03 21:50 +0100
                [OT] Non-ASCII characters (was: Mass--energy equivalence) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-03 21:57 +0100
                Re: [OT] Non-ASCII characters nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-03 23:18 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-03 23:18 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-04 01:17 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-08 12:32 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-08 15:24 +0100
                MacSOUP (was: Mass--energy equivalence) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-08 16:03 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-08 22:28 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-01-08 14:29 +0000
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-01-04 11:04 +0000
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-08 12:32 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-04 09:19 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-03 08:28 -0800
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-03 20:48 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-04 01:59 -0800
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-04 11:59 -0800
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Richard Hachel <rh@tiscali.fr> - 2026-01-03 18:49 +0000
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2026-01-02 15:13 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-02 16:35 +0100
                Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2026-01-03 22:06 +0100
                Mass--energy equivalence and the atomic bomb (was: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-01-03 22:28 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence and the atomic bomb "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2026-01-04 12:42 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence and the atomic bomb nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-04 20:20 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence and the atomic bomb "Paul.B.Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2026-01-04 21:08 +0100
                Re: Mass--energy equivalence and the atomic bomb nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-01-05 13:17 +0100
              Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-01-02 10:33 +0100
      Re: Fwd: Einstein's God (a cosmic religion) is called Spinoza's God The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2025-12-30 15:44 -0800

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