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Re: Hello World

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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In article <mdla9p$jeo$1@dont-email.me>, DMcCunney
<dennis.mccunney@gmail.com> wrote:

> >>> People tell me that C++ is the best general-purpose language.
> >>
> >> To which others will respond that it's an abomination, and you should
> >> use ANSI C.  :-)
> >
> > nonsense. c++ fixes all the crap that ansi c is.
> 
> <blink>  Do remember that the earliest versions of C++ were implemented 
> at Bell Labs as cfront, which translated C++ to C, for compilation by 
> the Unix C compiler, cc.  Native code compilation came later.

so what? that was a very, very long time ago.

today, modern c++ compilers are better than c compilers for many
reasons and produce faster code with fewer bugs. everyone wins.

> There's still an awful lot of C code in the wild.

so what? there's an awful lot of cobol code in the wild too.

> >> It largely depends on what you're writing.  If you are writing systems
> >> software, you use a language like C/C++ that compiles to native machine
> >> code.  If you are writing an application, the equation changes.
> >
> > no it doesn't.
> >
> > apps that are native code run faster and give a much better user
> > experience.
> 
> Native code may be faster, but user experience is based on many things, 
> and speed is only one.  From use user's perspective, the question isn't 
> "How fast is it", it's "Is it fast *enough?*"  If it is, the speed 
> advantage from native code is irrelevant, and the easier development and 
> shorter development cycles using something like Java or Python become 
> compelling.

speed is a key component. user interface design is another but that has
nothing to do with the choice of language.

> >> (And you must be aware of compiler differences.  When Mozilla was
> >> creating what became Firefox, they used C++ and wanted portable code.
> >> There was an amusing developer's document that had lots of admonitions
> >> to the effect of "Just because it works in Microsoft Visual C++, don't
> >> assume it works elsewhere."  A particular problem child was the C++
> >> compiler shipped with HP-UX.)
> >
> > microsoft's compiler was not standards compliant.
> >
> > blame them, not the language.
> 
> I blame programmers who weren't versed in the standard, and thought what 
> Visual C++ did was the way they all did it.

blame microsoft for that. microsoft intentionally twisted the standard
for lock-in. 

> And even if two products are theoretically standards compliant, you can 
> find differences in how they *implement* the standard.  Depending upon 
> the standard and how it is written, both may be arguably standards 
> compliant yet incompatible.

sometimes.

> >> On Android, the development language is Java, as implemented by the
> >> Dalvik runtime.
> >
> > dalvik is what android used to use. it's now art.
> 
> Still a Java runtime, but noted.
> 
> >> iOS, as mentioned, expects Objective-C or Swift.  On
> >> Windows, Linux, or OS/X, you might use Python.
> >
> > python is not a good choice for apps, except maybe very simple ones.
> 
> <giggle>

you haven't written very many apps then.

> >> The advantage to Java and Python is that they compile to an intermediate
> >> representation targeted at the virtual machine implemented by the
> >> language runtime.  It's possible to write and compile Java, for example,
> >> on Windows, and run the code on a different platform.  The output from
> >> Java compilation is the same regardless of what you compiled it on.  I
> >> have IBM's Eclipse IDE written in Java here.  I run the *same* binary on
> >> Windows and Linux.
> >
> > that doesn't work well in practice.
> 
> It's not easy to achieve, but *is* achievable.  See my example of 
> Eclipse above.  And if you do it, it's a lot faster and simpler to 
> develop than writing in something like C++, getting it portable, then 
> cross compiling for different architectures.

eclipse is awful. 

> >> Modern hardware is fast and powerful enough that you can write in
> >> something like Python and get good enough performance that you don't
> >> *have* to compile to native code.
> >
> > except that other developers *are* compiling to native code, which
> > means their apps will be that much better.
> 
> You may picture me rolling on the floor and laughing hysterically.
> 
> As an example, an app used daily here is Calibre, from
> http://calibre-ebook.com.

calibre is a steaming pile of shit and has a user interface only a
mother could love. 

if that's the best example you can come up with, you've proved my point.

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Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-07 12:53 -0600
  Re: Hello World Inge Svensson <ingesvensson@bredband.net> - 2015-03-07 19:58 +0100
  Re: Hello World Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2usenet2014.subsume.com> - 2015-03-08 15:02 +0000
    Re: Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-08 14:51 -0500
      Re: Hello World Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2015-03-08 20:41 +0000
        Re: Hello World Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2015-03-08 20:44 +0000
        Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-08 16:51 -0500
          Re: Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-08 16:11 -0500
            Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-08 17:23 -0500
              Re: Hello World Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2015-03-08 22:51 +0000
                Re: Hello World Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2015-03-08 22:52 +0000
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-08 21:52 -0500
                Re: Hello World Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2015-03-09 12:09 +0000
                Re: Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 07:52 -0500
                Re: Hello World Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2015-03-09 13:31 +0000
                Re: Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 09:04 -0500
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 11:10 -0500
                Re: Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 10:14 -0500
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 11:26 -0500
                Re: Hello World Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2015-03-09 17:32 +0000
                Re: Hello World DMcCunney <dennis.mccunney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 14:57 -0400
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 15:07 -0500
                Re: Hello World Alan Meyer <ameyer2@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-09 16:19 -0400
                Re: Hello World Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-03-09 22:02 +0000
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 22:36 -0400
                Re: Hello World Tony Cito <tonycito@this.is.invalid> - 2015-03-10 13:23 +0000
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-10 19:50 -0400
                Re: Hello World DMcCunney <dennis.mccunney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-09 19:28 -0400
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-10 19:50 -0400
                Re: Hello World DMcCunney <dennis.mccunney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-10 20:58 -0400
                Re: Hello World Alan Meyer <ameyer2@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-10 22:31 -0400
                Re: Hello World Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-03-09 19:14 +0000
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 15:07 -0500
                Re: Hello World Alan Meyer <ameyer2@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-09 13:56 -0400
                Re: Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 15:15 -0500
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 16:19 -0500
                Re: Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 15:25 -0500
                Re: Hello World Nigel Wade <nmw@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2015-03-10 11:23 +0000
                Re: Hello World Alan Meyer <ameyer2@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-09 16:37 -0400
                Re: Hello World Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-03-09 21:58 +0000
                Re: Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 18:09 -0500
                Re: Hello World Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-03-10 23:43 +0000
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-10 19:50 -0400
                Re: Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 15:17 -0500
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 16:19 -0500
                Re: Hello World Alan Meyer <ameyer2@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-09 16:27 -0400
                Re: Hello World Nigel Wade <nmw@ion.le.ac.uk> - 2015-03-10 15:18 +0000
                Re: Hello World Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-03-10 13:31 +1300
                Re: Hello World Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-03-10 09:29 +1300
                Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-09 16:29 -0500
                Re: Hello World Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-03-09 13:26 +1300
        Re: Hello World Sunshine <sunshine@my.antispam.invalid> - 2015-03-08 16:08 -0500
          Re: Hello World nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-08 17:23 -0500
      Re: Hello World Doc O'Leary  <droleary@2usenet2014.subsume.com> - 2015-03-09 03:26 +0000
  Re: Hello World Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-03-09 14:20 +0000
    Re: Hello World BugHunter <bughunter@com.invalid> - 2015-03-09 15:42 +0100
      Re: Hello World Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-03-09 19:05 +0000
    Re: Hello World Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-03-09 08:12 -0700
    Re: Hello World Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2015-03-09 17:48 +0000
      Re: Hello World Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2015-03-09 18:30 +0000
        Re: Hello World BugHunter <bughunter@com.invalid> - 2015-03-09 19:35 +0100
      Re: Hello World Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-03-09 19:11 +0000
        Re: Hello World Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> - 2015-03-10 12:16 +0000
      Re: Hello World Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-03-10 09:35 +1300
      Re: Hello World "HankG" <hgxrp@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-11 13:58 -0400

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