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Groups > comp.theory > #119062
| From | Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory |
| Subject | Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? |
| Date | 2025-05-14 19:38 +0100 |
| Organization | Fix this later |
| Message-ID | <1002nvo$2k04b$5@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (2 earlier) <479eebef3bd93e82c8fe363908b254b11d15a799.camel@gmail.com> <1002j0r$2k04b$1@dont-email.me> <3b177909de383fcf209cfb9ff81fe2f118640578.camel@gmail.com> <1002l44$2k04b$3@dont-email.me> <8c7a8437e78a5b798cc23d77a8e1b6080e59ab0e.camel@gmail.com> |
On 14/05/2025 19:01, wij wrote:
> On Wed, 2025-05-14 at 18:49 +0100, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 14/05/2025 18:33, wij wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2025-05-14 at 18:14 +0100, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 14/05/2025 17:43, wij wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 2025-05-14 at 09:51 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> To make a TM that references itself the closest
>>>>>> thing is a UTM that simulates its own TM source-code.
>>>>>
>>>>> How does a UTM simulate its own TM source-code?
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't have to simulate anything. All it has to do is to
>>>> restore the state into which the programmer wishes to recurse.
>>>
>>> So, when you say "A UTM simulates X", it means 'the UTM' doesn't have to do
>>> anything. So, 'UTM' is human (e.g. you), not a real TM?
>>
>> No, it doesn't mean that.
>
> You said "It doesn't have to simulate anything. All it has to do is to
> restore the state into which the programmer wishes to recurse."
Yes.
>
> Then, what is it?
It's my answer to your question:
Q: Write a turing machine that performs D function (which calls
itself):
void D() {
D();
}
>>>> I've already shown how this can be done.
>> Here's the gist of that article...
>>
>> Here's the tape:
>> [0]
>>
>> current state: 0
>> content of the square being scanned: 0
>> new content of the square: 0
>> move left, right, or stay: stay
>> next state: 0
>>
>> This TM functions by returning the state of the machine to its
>> starting state.
>>
>> The only functional difference between this code and yours is
>> that yours will blow the stack. (Mine doesn't have a stack to blow.)
>>
>
> 1. Apparently your TM (one single symbol '0') is not what you say.
[0] is the *tape*.
TMs have a tape, a read/write head, a single-stepping tape motor,
and a finite state machine.
See <https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/turing-machine/>
where you can read this:
"A Turing machine then, or a computing machine as Turing called
it, in Turing’s original definition is a machine capable of a
finite set of configurations q1,…,qn (the states of the machine,
called m-configurations by Turing). It is supplied with a one-way
infinite and one-dimensional tape divided into squares each
capable of carrying exactly one symbol. At any moment, the
machine is scanning the content of one square r which is either
blank (symbolized by S0) or contains a symbol S1,…,Sm with S1=0
and S2=1."
There's more to TMs than tapes.
> 2. D() should have at least one final state
Yours doesn't, so why should mine?
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
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How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 13:13 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 07:02 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 09:51 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 00:43 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 18:14 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 01:33 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 18:49 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 02:01 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 19:38 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 13:00 -0700
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 15:02 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 21:19 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 21:16 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 13:49 -0700
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-05-14 21:13 +0000
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-15 10:24 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 22:28 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 14:40 -0700
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-14 23:02 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-05-15 01:09 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 17:19 -0700
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 09:38 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 09:58 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 10:11 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2025-05-15 00:55 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-15 10:17 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 12:24 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 01:39 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-14 12:45 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 02:13 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 01:53 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-15 17:08 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 11:47 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 03:57 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 15:50 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-16 10:33 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:43 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-16 12:10 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-17 11:58 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-15 19:37 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-16 10:27 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:40 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-19 10:21 +0200
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 13:39 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 23:41 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-21 11:47 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-21 07:11 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 02:49 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-15 14:15 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 04:08 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-16 10:45 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:47 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-16 21:34 +0200
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-16 10:40 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:44 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-17 12:02 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-16 01:40 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-05-16 01:59 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 09:47 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-16 03:26 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 19:40 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-16 16:33 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 03:35 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-16 23:51 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 11:01 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 22:12 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 11:23 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 22:40 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 11:49 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 22:58 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-17 09:02 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-17 15:45 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-18 03:26 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 14:39 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-18 11:20 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 04:35 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-18 15:57 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-18 17:45 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 05:46 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-18 17:09 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 06:35 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-18 19:09 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 07:54 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 13:52 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 13:48 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 23:36 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-21 11:56 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-05-18 15:58 -0600
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-18 17:08 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-18 19:19 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2025-05-18 21:21 -0600
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-18 23:07 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-19 09:54 +0200
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 15:29 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 23:33 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-21 12:03 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-21 07:16 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-21 21:43 +0200
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-21 14:49 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-05-23 13:03 +0200
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 13:44 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-19 13:41 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-17 20:46 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 14:55 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-17 16:07 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-05-16 12:22 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2025-05-16 16:57 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-05-16 21:04 +0100
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 15:38 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-05-17 05:21 +0800
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 16:40 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-16 20:32 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2025-05-16 17:59 -0400
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-16 10:24 +0300
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-05-16 10:37 -0500
Re: How to write a self-referencial TM? Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-05-15 10:07 +0300
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