Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > sci.physics > #725496 > unrolled thread

How fast are atoms spinning?

Back to article view | Back to sci.physics

Contents

  How fast are atoms spinning? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2019-02-01 05:03 -0800
    Re: How fast are atoms spinning? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2019-02-01 13:48 +0000
      Re: How fast are atoms spinning? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2019-02-01 06:31 -0800
        Re: How fast are atoms spinning? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2019-02-01 16:25 +0000
      Re: How fast are atoms spinning? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2019-02-01 06:38 -0800
        Re: How fast are atoms spinning? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2019-02-01 16:33 +0000
      Re: How fast are atoms spinning? poraty6@gmail.com - 2019-02-01 08:56 -0800
    Re: How fast are atoms spinning? Sergi o <invaliid@invalid.com> - 2019-02-01 09:31 -0600
      Re: How fast are atoms spinning? poraty6@gmail.com - 2019-02-01 08:57 -0800
        Re: How fast are atoms spinning? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2019-02-05 01:32 -0800
          Re: How fast are atoms spinning? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2019-02-05 13:16 +0000
            Re: How fast are atoms spinning? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2019-02-05 05:36 -0800
              Re: How fast are atoms spinning? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2019-02-05 14:06 +0000
                Re: How fast are atoms spinning? john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2019-02-05 07:11 -0800
                  Re: How fast are atoms spinning? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2019-02-05 17:04 +0000
                  Re: How fast are atoms spinning? Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2019-02-05 17:29 +0000
                    Re: How fast are atoms spinning? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2019-02-05 20:40 -0800
              Re: How fast are atoms spinning? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2019-02-05 17:00 +0000
          Re: How fast are atoms spinning? moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2019-02-05 16:56 +0000
          Re: How fast are atoms spinning? poraty6@gmail.com - 2019-02-06 01:02 -0800
            Re: How fast are atoms spinning? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2019-02-06 18:41 -0800
    Re: How fast are atoms spinning? poraty6@gmail.com - 2019-02-01 08:54 -0800
    Re: How fast are atoms spinning? mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2019-02-07 14:12 -0800
      Re: How fast are atoms spinning? poraty6@gmail.com - 2019-02-07 22:45 -0800

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#725496 — How fast are atoms spinning?

Well, let’s see:
A Carbon atom is about 10^-09 m in diameter.
So it’s circumference is about 3X10^-09m.

Attophysics says the period of an electron is 10^-16 seconds.

So the outside edge of an atom, using those figures, will be traveling at
3X 10^-09/ 10^-16 = 3 X 10^7 meters per second

Or 3 X 10^5 kilometres per second.

How fast is that?

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#725502

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>Subject: Re: How fast are atoms spinning?

Assumes facts not in evidence.

If the electrons orbited like that, they'd radiate away energy
and crash into the nucleus. As you have been told. Repeatedly.

The Bohr atom model has been obsolete for almost 100 years now.

So your answer is 0 times per second.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725505

MM
“If the electrons orbited like that, they'd radiate away energy 
and crash into the nucleus. As you have been told. Repeatedly. ”
Gee, stars ‘crash into the nucleus” all the time, but then jets travel back out and new stars form- it’s s cycle, Michael, as I have told you. Repeatedly.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725511

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>MM
>"If the electrons orbited like that, they'd radiate away energy
>and crash into the nucleus. As you have been told. Repeatedly. "
>Gee, stars "crash into the nucleus" all the time, but then
>jets travel back out and new stars form- it's s cycle, Michael, as
>I have told you. Repeatedly.
>
No, stars falling into a black hole is a relatively uncommon event. When they
do, most matter goes into the hole, never to be seen again, while jets do disturb
gas clouds and cause star formation, but that's not a cycle.

Besides, a HUGE difference is that it is well known from experimental evidence
that accelerating charges produce radiation, while your cycle is only a
figment of your imagination.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725506

MM
“If the electrons orbited like that, they'd radiate away energy 
and crash into the nucleus.”
Why do you assume the electron is a single body? For MANY years, now, it has been understood to be a CLOUD. Yes, little bits DO radiate all their energy away and ‘crash’ into the spin at the center- and are then reenergized by that spin and shot back out.

You’re still thinking of the electron as a ‘point particle’, but you also think that this ‘point particle ‘ can be ‘distributed?
That’s very creative thinking (i.e. nonsense).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725512

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>Why do you assume the electron is a single body?

I don't "assume" that. Experimental evidence supports that VERY strongly.

> For MANY years, now, it has been understood to be a CLOUD.

So you must think that means little bits since real clouds are made of
tiny droplets of water?

Wrong. An electron in an atom is better thought of as a WAVE, not a
particle. Schrodinger's WAVE equation? Remember?

> Yes, little bits DO radiate all their energy away and 'crash' into
>the spin at the center- and are then reenergized by that spin and shot 
>back out.

So how come we NEVER see that? Electromagnetic energy is VERY easy to
detect, and you an me and the earth should be positively GLOWING if
so.

>You're still thinking of the electron as a 'point particle', but you
also think that this 'point particle' can be distributed?
>That's very creative thinking (i.e. nonsense).

No, it is like a photon. Acts like a wave sometimes and like a particle
at other times. HUP.  It's just that because it has mass, an electron
acts more like a particle than a photon does.
>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725514

On Friday, February 1, 2019 at 3:48:15 PM UTC+2, Michael Moroney wrote:
> john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> >Subject: Re: How fast are atoms spinning?
> 
> Assumes facts not in evidence.
> 
> If the electrons orbited like that, they'd radiate away energy
> and crash into the nucleus. As you have been told. Repeatedly.
> 
> The Bohr atom model has been obsolete for almost 100 years now.
> 
> So your answer is 0 times per second.
=============
even electrons are not orbiting
the are vibrating 
==

Y.Porat
=====================

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725508

On 2/1/2019 7:03 AM, john wrote:
> Well, let’s see:
> A Carbon atom is about 10^-09 m in diameter.
> So it’s circumference is about 3X10^-09m.
> 
> Attophysics says the period of an electron is 10^-16 seconds.
> 
> So the outside edge of an atom, using those figures, will be traveling at
> 3X 10^-09/ 10^-16 = 3 X 10^7 meters per second
> 
> Or 3 X 10^5 kilometres per second.
> 
> How fast is that?
> 

don't atoms vibrate more than they spin ?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725515

On Friday, February 1, 2019 at 5:32:11 PM UTC+2, Sergi o wrote:
> On 2/1/2019 7:03 AM, john wrote:
> > Well, let’s see:
> > A Carbon atom is about 10^-09 m in diameter.
> > So it’s circumference is about 3X10^-09m.
> > 
> > Attophysics says the period of an electron is 10^-16 seconds.
> > 
> > So the outside edge of an atom, using those figures, will be traveling at
> > 3X 10^-09/ 10^-16 = 3 X 10^7 meters per second
> > 
> > Or 3 X 10^5 kilometres per second.
> > 
> > How fast is that?
> > 
> 
> don't atoms vibrate more than they spin ?
====
exactly!!!
vibrating
not orbiting 

TIA
Y.P
===================

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725961

Porat
“> don't atoms vibrate more than they spin ? 
==== 
exactly!!! 
vibrating 
not orbiting ”

That’s just the cop out so they can say electrons don’t radiate.
But attophysics shows electrons leaving the atom at  a large fraction of lightspeed when perturbed. So figure out then how they can accelerate from 0 to .3c in 10^-16 seconds, and what energy that would require- idiots

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725974

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote:
> Porat
>> don't atoms vibrate more than they spin ? 
> ==== 
> exactly!!! 
> vibrating 
> not orbiting ”
> 
> That’s just the cop out so they can say electrons don’t radiate.
> But attophysics shows electrons leaving the atom at  a large fraction of
> lightspeed when perturbed. So figure out then how they can accelerate
> from 0 to .3c in 10^-16 seconds, and what energy that would require- idiots
> 

Well, that IS a straightforward calculation of energy. Can you do it?

-- 
Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725980

Odd
“  So figure out then how they can accelerate 
> from 0 to .3c in 10^-16 seconds, and what energy that would require- idiots 
> 

Well, that IS a straightforward calculation of energy. Can you do it? “

No, but that’s not the point. The point is- where does that energy come from?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725983

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote:
> Odd
> “  So figure out then how they can accelerate 
>> from 0 to .3c in 10^-16 seconds, and what energy that would require- idiots 
>> 
> 
> Well, that IS a straightforward calculation of energy. Can you do it? “
> 
> No, but that’s not the point. The point is- where does that energy come from?
> 

Lol. 

Well, see, if it’s not a huge amount of energy (and it’s not) then it’s not
really a Holy Cow event is it?

As for what can supply that energy, oh, let’s see. A little bit of electric
current like what powers a fluorescent light bulb. Or an electron impact,
like what makes a phosphorescent screen glow. Or the ionization of a
passing cosmic ray, which is what makes a little pulse of light in
scintillator plastic. Or any of a zillion other small exchanges of energy
that cause ionization every single second of every single day your whole
life. 

-- 
Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725984

Odd
“Lol. 

Well, see, if it’s not a huge amount of energy (and it’s not) then it’s not 
really a Holy Cow event is it? 

As for what can supply that energy, oh, let’s see. A little bit of electric 
current like what powers a fluorescent light bulb. Or an electron impact, 
like what makes a phosphorescent screen glow. Or the ionization of a 
passing cosmic ray, which is what makes a little pulse of light in 
scintillator plastic. Or any of a zillion other small exchanges of energy 
that cause ionization every single second of every single day your whole 
life. ”
Well, you’ll forgive me if I don’t believe that a woodworker has the first clue as to how much energy is required to accelerate an electron from zero to .3c. Presumably after instantaneously reassembling it from its ‘distribution’ around the atom back into a ‘point’. lol

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725998

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>Well, you'll forgive me if I don't believe that a woodworker has the first
>clue as to how much energy is required to accelerate an electron from zero
>to .3c.

Why not? It is a high school level problem and Odd is obviously very
knowledgeable about physics, even if it has nothing to do with his line
of work.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725999

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote:
> Odd
> “Lol. 
> 
> Well, see, if it’s not a huge amount of energy (and it’s not) then it’s not 
> really a Holy Cow event is it? 
> 
> As for what can supply that energy, oh, let’s see. A little bit of electric 
> current like what powers a fluorescent light bulb. Or an electron impact, 
> like what makes a phosphorescent screen glow. Or the ionization of a 
> passing cosmic ray, which is what makes a little pulse of light in 
> scintillator plastic. Or any of a zillion other small exchanges of energy 
> that cause ionization every single second of every single day your whole 
> life. ”
> Well, you’ll forgive me if I don’t believe that a woodworker has the
> first clue as to how much energy is required to accelerate an electron from zero to .3c. 

John, what I do for a living has NOTHING to do with what I’ve read or what
I know about physics or what calculations I can do. If you’re going to
start a pissing match based on occupations, then perhaps you should own
upon what you do professionally and how that puts you in a position to
judge what a woodworker knows how to calculate. 

It takes 13.6 eV to eject an electron from ground state hydrogen. It takes
a quarter of that if it’s in its first excited state. 

13.6 eV is 2.18E-11 ergs. That’s 22 trillionths of an erg. If you drop a
dime in the process of giving change for a burger and fries, that dime will
acquire 222,500 ergs by the time it hits your nonslip shoes. 

It took me a total of 90 seconds to do all those calculations. Never
presume that your readers are in the same level of understanding as you. In
your case, it would be helpful if you reminded yourself often than you know
less than most people here. 

This isn’t going to make you happy. You’ll probably call me dick for saying
such things. I don’t believe in coddling people who aren’t interested in
doing the work. 

> Presumably after instantaneously reassembling it from its ‘distribution’
> around the atom back into a ‘point’. lol
> 



-- 
Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#726064

On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 9:29:41 AM UTC-8, Odd Bodkin wrote:
> john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Odd
> > “Lol. 
> > 
> > Well, see, if it’s not a huge amount of energy (and it’s not) then it’s not 
> > really a Holy Cow event is it? 
> > 
> > As for what can supply that energy, oh, let’s see. A little bit of electric 
> > current like what powers a fluorescent light bulb. Or an electron impact, 
> > like what makes a phosphorescent screen glow. Or the ionization of a 
> > passing cosmic ray, which is what makes a little pulse of light in 
> > scintillator plastic. Or any of a zillion other small exchanges of energy 
> > that cause ionization every single second of every single day your whole 
> > life. ”
> > Well, you’ll forgive me if I don’t believe that a woodworker has the
> > first clue as to how much energy is required to accelerate an electron from zero to .3c. 
> 
> John, what I do for a living has NOTHING to do with what I’ve read or what
> I know about physics or what calculations I can do. If you’re going to
> start a pissing match based on occupations, then perhaps you should own
> upon what you do professionally and how that puts you in a position to
> judge what a woodworker knows how to calculate. 
> 
> It takes 13.6 eV to eject an electron from ground state hydrogen. It takes
> a quarter of that if it’s in its first excited state. 
> 
> 13.6 eV is 2.18E-11 ergs. That’s 22 trillionths of an erg. If you drop a
> dime in the process of giving change for a burger and fries, that dime will
> acquire 222,500 ergs by the time it hits your nonslip shoes. 
> 
> It took me a total of 90 seconds to do all those calculations. Never
> presume that your readers are in the same level of understanding as you. In
> your case, it would be helpful if you reminded yourself often than you know
> less than most people here. 
> 
> This isn’t going to make you happy. You’ll probably call me dick for saying
> such things. I don’t believe in coddling people who aren’t interested in
> doing the work. 
> 
> > Presumably after instantaneously reassembling it from its ‘distribution’
> > around the atom back into a ‘point’. lol
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

None of mine are spinning.
By what axis would they spin?
God creates gravity.


Mitchell Raemsch

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725997

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>Odd
>"  So figure out then how they can accelerate
>> from 0 to .3c in 10^-16 seconds, and what energy that would require- idiots

>Well, that IS a straightforward calculation of energy. Can you do it? "

>No,

So you can't solve a high school level physics problem?

> but that's not the point. The point is- where does that energy come from?

Obviously from the photon or electron etc. that struck the atom in the
first place.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#725996

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>That's just the cop out so they can say electrons don't radiate.

Not a cop out. It can be proven that accelerating charges radiate, so anything
involving accelerating charges not radiating needs looking into, with the most
likely outcome being there is no acceleration after all.

>But attophysics shows electrons leaving the atom at  a large fraction of
>lightspeed when perturbed. So figure out then how they can accelerate from 0
>to .3c in 10^-16 seconds, and what energy that would require- idiots

You made two mistakes, John. First is that you are thinking of the electron
classically, as a little ball which has to be accelerated according to
Newton's Laws, not as a quantum object. Secondly, you don't know the difference
between energy and power. If classical mechanics applied (again, it doesn't)
you could argue it takes lots of power to accelerate the electron but little
energy. The amount of energy needed is a high school physics problem and as
Odd pointed out it isn't that much.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#726087

On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 11:33:00 AM UTC+2, john wrote:
> Porat
> “> don't atoms vibrate more than they spin ? 
> ==== 
> exactly!!! 
> vibrating 
> not orbiting ”
> 
> That’s just the cop out so they can say electrons don’t radiate.
> But attophysics shows electrons leaving the atom at  a large fraction of lightspeed when perturbed. So figure out then how they can accelerate from 0 to .3c in 10^-16 seconds, and what energy that would require- idiots
======================
=electrons   in aoms
are if you like
like a compassed spring..
there is a lot of inner energy in it
so metaphorically
if you  compress a spring  you 'stuff it'' by byenergy
potential energy!!

so while you release your compression
it   popes  out ''at once''  (a tiny short time)
from 'zero   to c 
similar to a ''bomb.  explosion..   


how about that ??
================
Y.P
==================

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | sci.physics

csiph-web