Groups > sci.physics > #714629 > unrolled thread

Asymmetrical GRCs

Started by	john <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
First post	2018-11-25 05:08 -0800
Last post	2018-11-26 13:26 -0800
Articles	12 on this page of 32 — 6 participants

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  Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 05:08 -0800
    Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 05:28 -0800
      Re: Asymmetrical GRCs moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-11-25 14:10 +0000
      Re: Asymmetrical GRCs Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 14:26 +0000
    Re: Asymmetrical GRCs moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-11-25 14:01 +0000
    Re: Asymmetrical GRCs Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 14:26 +0000
      Re: Asymmetrical GRCs moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-11-25 14:53 +0000
        Re: Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 09:03 -0800
          Re: Asymmetrical GRCs moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-11-25 17:37 +0000
          Re: Asymmetrical GRCs Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 18:55 +0000
          Re: Asymmetrical GRCs Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-26 22:14 +0100
            Re: Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-26 15:29 -0800
              Re: Asymmetrical GRCs Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-27 01:23 +0100
                Re: Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-27 03:10 -0800
                  Re: Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-27 07:10 -0800
                    Re: Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-27 07:54 -0800
                      Re: Asymmetrical GRCs moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-11-27 16:11 +0000
                    Re: Asymmetrical GRCs moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-11-27 16:08 +0000
                      Re: Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-27 21:28 -0800
                        Re: Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-28 03:47 -0800
                          Re: Asymmetrical GRCs moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-11-28 13:00 +0000
                            Re: Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-28 07:45 -0800
                              Re: Asymmetrical GRCs Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-28 17:20 +0000
                              Re: Asymmetrical GRCs moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-11-28 17:55 +0000
                        Re: Asymmetrical GRCs moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-11-28 12:54 +0000
                  Re: Asymmetrical GRCs Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-28 00:38 +0100
        Re: Asymmetrical GRCs john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 09:08 -0800
          Re: Asymmetrical GRCs moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-11-25 17:49 +0000
          Re: Asymmetrical GRCs Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 18:55 +0000
    Re: Asymmetrical GRCs Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-25 21:45 +0100
      Re: Asymmetrical GRCs Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-11-26 19:22 -0600
    Re: Asymmetrical GRCs mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-11-26 13:26 -0800

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#715077

From	moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date	2018-11-28 13:00 +0000
Message-ID	<ptm3h1$s1b$2@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to	#715068

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>MM

>"The average speeds are just slightly different on different sides. "

>Just slightly?

Yes.

>Oh that's okay then?

Uneven mass distribution in the galaxies can explain it just fine.

Meanwhile, you consider it "okay" that galaxies can precess and violate
the laws of physics, all without any external torque, no conservation of
momentum, stars all orbit at different rates (not as a disk) etc. etc.
Why you bring up being "okay" if the mass is slightly uneven but all kinds
of violations of the laws of physics gets overlooked by you?

>I used to think you had a brain, Michael

You may or may not have had one at one time, but Little Pharma must have
killed it off long ago.

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#715122

From	john <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date	2018-11-28 07:45 -0800
Message-ID	<c030765c-6ba4-4233-8248-288fb04b9a50@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#715077

MM
“Why you bring up being "okay" if the mass is slightly uneven but all kinds ”
So galaxies look uneven to you?
And they have demonstrated “axions”?

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#715151

From	Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date	2018-11-28 17:20 +0000
Message-ID	<ptmipr$4pd$2@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#715122

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote:
> MM
> “Why you bring up being "okay" if the mass is slightly uneven but all kinds ”
> So galaxies look uneven to you?

At the few percent level? Absolutely! Just look at pictures!

> And they have demonstrated “axions”?
> 



-- 
Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#715157

From	moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date	2018-11-28 17:55 +0000
Message-ID	<ptmkpr$q3u$1@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to	#715122

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>MM
>"Why you bring up being "okay" if the mass is slightly uneven but all kinds "
>So galaxies look uneven to you?

Definitely.

Now what is your excuse for these supposedly precessing galaxies violating
all kinds of laws of physics by precessing? Why are you silent on that but
seemed to be bothered by the fact that many spiral galaxies are a little
uneven? (or sometimes a lot uneven)

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#715074

From	moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date	2018-11-28 12:54 +0000
Message-ID	<ptm35p$s1b$1@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to	#715040

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>MM
>"The average speeds are just slightly different on different sides. "
>When do they do the averaging?

Same as any other averaging.

Add up the velocities (of stars at a particular distance and side in this
case) and divide (by the number of stars).

In reality they probably look at the position and width of spectral lines.

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#715022

From	Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de>
Date	2018-11-28 00:38 +0100
Message-ID	<15798e20-c1b8-61c8-7ab5-e816d5380a8a@PointedEars.de>
In reply to	#714946

john wrote:
> Thomas
> ‘The rotation curve of a disc galaxy (also called a velocity curve) is a plot of the orbital speeds of visible stars or gas in that galaxy versus their radial distance from that galaxy's centre. It is typically rendered graphically as a plot, and the data observed from each side of a spiral galaxy are generally asymmetric, so that data from each side are averaged to create the curve. ‘

What are you quoting there?

> Yes it is

It is what?

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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#714672

From	john <johnsefton288@gmail.com>
Date	2018-11-25 09:08 -0800
Message-ID	<1868362b-87e3-45d5-b4e7-615991080c66@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#714648

You guys don’t want to look at this full-on, do you?
If there is a ‘slow side’, most of the stars will be backed-up there.
If stars are just going different speeds, then how can all the slow-moving stars happen to be on the same side in so many galaxies?

Open.
Your.
Eyes.

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#714679

From	moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Date	2018-11-25 17:49 +0000
Message-ID	<ptenbe$mrf$2@pcls7.std.com>
In reply to	#714672

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> writes:

>You guys don't want to look at this full-on, do you?
>If there is a "slow side", most of the stars will be backed-up there.
>If stars are just going different speeds, then how can all the slow-moving
>stars happen to be on the same side in so many galaxies?

Simple. Asymmetric galaxy, and stars take a longer path when on the "fast"
side than when on the "slow" side. This would happen if the mass is not
evenly distributed and the sides of the galaxy are not the same size.

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#714687

From	Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Date	2018-11-25 18:55 +0000
Message-ID	<pter6c$11tc$2@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#714672

john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote:
> You guys don’t want to look at this full-on, do you?
> If there is a ‘slow side’, most of the stars will be backed-up there.

Depends on the differential and the number of turns. 

> If stars are just going different speeds, then how can all the
> slow-moving stars happen to be on the same side in so many galaxies?

Cite evidence. 

Oh that’s right. You can’t. 

> 
> Open.
> Your.
> Eyes.
> 



-- 
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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#714705

From	Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de>
Date	2018-11-25 21:45 +0100
Message-ID	<ab3475b2-bc8c-1ba5-6024-3b251ba1bac5@PointedEars.de>
In reply to	#714629

    [The following is part of my preparing for the Astronomy test
     on Tuesday.  Do not expect this level of verbosity every time.]

john wrote:
> [referring to “Asymmetrical Galaxy Rotation Curves” (GRCs), apparently;
> an acronym that apparently he has just invented]
> It is impossible for one side of a turning disc to be going faster than the other.

Why do you think this would be claimed in the first place?

A galactic rotation curve plots the orbital speed v of stars against
*their distance D from the center*.  It typically looks as follows:

    [Use a fixed-width font for display; see also
     <https://github.com/PointedEars/userscripts#ggformatteruserjs>]

  v        solid disc (v = ω D)
  ^       .
  :      .          __...---- observed
  :     .     _.--''
  :    .  .-'-.            __
  :   ..'       .         |PE
  :  .            .
  : .               .
  :.                  ' . _ _ spiral
  '-------------------------> D

What would be expected from the luminous matter is the graph labeled
“spiral”: the orbital speed of stars should *go down* as their distance
from the galactic center increases.  Because a spiral galaxy is NOT like a
solid disc, but a loose arrangement of stars and the interstellar medium (ISM).

Instead, the orbital speed remains *approximately* *constant* as D increases
(“observed”).

There is absolutely NO implication in such a diagram that one "side" of the
galaxy would rotate faster than another "side".

If it helps you to see that, the other "side" is implied in the diagram:

                               v        solid disc (v = ω D)
                       .       ^       .
     ----...__          .      :      .          __...---- observed
              ''--._     .     :     .     _.--''
                   .-'-.  .    :    .  .-'-.            __
                 .       `..   :   ..'       .         |PE
               .            .  :  .            .
             .               . : .               .
     _ _ . '                  .:.                  ' . _ _ spiral
  −D <-------------------------:-------------------------> D
                            galactic
                             center
                               _
                         .  '     '  .
                      '    .  ' '  .    `
                    '   '     . .     `   '
                  .   '   '         `   ' ^ .^  ^  ^
                     '  '   . ' ' .    ^  :  :  :  :
                    .      ' . ' . '^  :  :  :  :  : v
           :  :  :  :  :  : v  C  ^ :  :  :  :  :  :
         v :  :  :  :  :  v. . _ . ,      '
           :  :  :  :. v'   ' . . '   '  .
           v  v  v' v .   '.       .'   .   '
                    .   '     ' '     .   .
                      .    `  . .  '    .          __
                        `  .   _   .  '           |PE

  Motion of stars in a spiral galaxy: The length of the arrows indicate
  how fast a star at this distance from the center (C) is orbiting around
  the galactic center (its tangential/orbital/radial speed).
  (The direction of the arrows indicate the direction of tangential motion.)

Cf.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galaxy_rotation_under_the_influence_of_dark_matter.ogv>

Do you understand it now?

-- 
PointedEars

Twitter: @PointedEars2
Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

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#714901

From	Sergio <invalid@invalid.com>
Date	2018-11-26 19:22 -0600
Message-ID	<pti69i$jn9$1@gioia.aioe.org>
In reply to	#714705

On 11/25/2018 2:45 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>     [The following is part of my preparing for the Astronomy test
>      on Tuesday.  Do not expect this level of verbosity every time.]
> 
> john wrote:
>> [referring to “Asymmetrical Galaxy Rotation Curves” (GRCs), apparently;
>> an acronym that apparently he has just invented]
>> It is impossible for one side of a turning disc to be going faster than the other.
> 
> Why do you think this would be claimed in the first place?
> 
> A galactic rotation curve plots the orbital speed v of stars against
> *their distance D from the center*.  It typically looks as follows:
> 
>     [Use a fixed-width font for display; see also
>      <https://github.com/PointedEars/userscripts#ggformatteruserjs>]
> 
> 
>   v        solid disc (v = ω D)
>   ^       .
>   :      .          __...---- observed
>   :     .     _.--''
>   :    .  .-'-.            __
>   :   ..'       .         |PE
>   :  .            .
>   : .               .
>   :.                  ' . _ _ spiral
>   '-------------------------> D
> 
> What would be expected from the luminous matter is the graph labeled
> “spiral”: the orbital speed of stars should *go down* as their distance
> from the galactic center increases.  Because a spiral galaxy is NOT like a
> solid disc, but a loose arrangement of stars and the interstellar medium (ISM).
> 
> Instead, the orbital speed remains *approximately* *constant* as D increases
> (“observed”).
> 
> There is absolutely NO implication in such a diagram that one "side" of the
> galaxy would rotate faster than another "side".
> 
> If it helps you to see that, the other "side" is implied in the diagram:
> 
>                                v        solid disc (v = ω D)
>                        .       ^       .
>      ----...__          .      :      .          __...---- observed
>               ''--._     .     :     .     _.--''
>                    .-'-.  .    :    .  .-'-.            __
>                  .       `..   :   ..'       .         |PE
>                .            .  :  .            .
>              .               . : .               .
>      _ _ . '                  .:.                  ' . _ _ spiral
>   −D <-------------------------:-------------------------> D
>                             galactic
>                              center
>                                _
>                          .  '     '  .
>                       '    .  ' '  .    `
>                     '   '     . .     `   '
>                   .   '   '         `   ' ^ .^  ^  ^
>                      '  '   . ' ' .    ^  :  :  :  :
>                     .      ' . ' . '^  :  :  :  :  : v
>            :  :  :  :  :  : v  C  ^ :  :  :  :  :  :
>          v :  :  :  :  :  v. . _ . ,      '
>            :  :  :  :. v'   ' . . '   '  .
>            v  v  v' v .   '.       .'   .   '
>                     .   '     ' '     .   .
>                       .    `  . .  '    .          __
>                         `  .   _   .  '           |PE
> 
> 
>   Motion of stars in a spiral galaxy: The length of the arrows indicate
>   how fast a star at this distance from the center (C) is orbiting around
>   the galactic center (its tangential/orbital/radial speed).
>   (The direction of the arrows indicate the direction of tangential motion.)
> 
> Cf.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galaxy_rotation_under_the_influence_of_dark_matter.ogv>
> 
> 
> Do you understand it now?
> 


Excellent!

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#714867

From	mitchrae3323@gmail.com
Date	2018-11-26 13:26 -0800
Message-ID	<04e722b4-48d5-4856-b313-1bf7287148f7@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#714629

On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 5:08:42 AM UTC-8, john wrote:
> It is impossible for one side of a turning disc to be going faster than the other.
> Whether or not you invoke DM.
> 
> Galaxies must precess.

Accept that it comes from gravity such as Mercury's precession does...

> 
> How stupid ARE you people?

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csiph-web

Asymmetrical GRCs

Contents

#715077

#715122

#715151

#715157

#715074

#715022

#714672

#714679

#714687

#714705

#714901

#714867