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A wrenching problem

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  A wrenching problem Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-10-30 21:43 -0500
    Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 02:56 +0000
      Re: A wrenching problem xxein1@att.net - 2015-10-31 10:06 -0700
      Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 13:35 -0400
        Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 18:06 +0000
          Re: A wrenching problem jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-10-31 19:03 +0000
            Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 19:33 +0000
              Re: A wrenching problem jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2015-10-31 19:50 +0000
            Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 17:07 -0400
              Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 22:22 +0000
                Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 23:12 -0400
                  Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-11-01 04:04 +0000
                    Re: A wrenching problem "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 21:29 -0700
                      Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-11-01 06:28 +0000
                    Re: A wrenching problem olli.dp3@gmail.com - 2015-10-31 23:09 -0700
                    Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 10:49 -0500
        Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 18:26 +0000
          Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 16:56 -0400
            Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 21:25 +0000
            Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 21:33 +0000
              Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 22:56 -0400
        Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 19:04 +0000
          Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 17:25 -0400
          Re: A wrenching problem dvus <dven1@adelphia.net> - 2015-11-01 08:29 -0500
            Re: A wrenching problem benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 10:21 -0500
              Re: A wrenching problem dvus <dven1@adelphia.net> - 2015-11-01 22:43 -0500
            Re: A wrenching problem R Kym Horsell <kym@kymhorsell.com> - 2015-11-01 18:48 +0000
        Re: A wrenching problem Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> - 2015-10-31 20:13 +0000

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#529359 — A wrenching problem

A wrenching problem

   If there is enough room to rotate a hex bolt or nut 30°, then an
   offset of 15° in the open end wrench will allow (flipping the wrench
   over) an additional 30° of rotation totaling 60°.

   An excellent design using a 15° offset in open end wrenches, for hex
   bolts and nuts. Simple mathematics really.

   May the use of good wrenches be with you all.


-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#529363

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:43:40 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:

> 
>    An excellent design using a 15° offset in open end wrenches, for hex
>    bolts and nuts. Simple mathematics really.
> 

Even better is the use of a ratcheting wrench.  No offset and
no math required:

http://store-planetools.com/ratchetingboxwrenchaviation7-pieceset.aspx

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#529427

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 10:58:05 PM UTC-4, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:43:40 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:
> 
> > 
> >    An excellent design using a 15° offset in open end wrenches, for hex
> >    bolts and nuts. Simple mathematics really.
> > 
> 
> Even better is the use of a ratcheting wrench.  No offset and
> no math required:
> 
> http://store-planetools.com/ratchetingboxwrenchaviation7-pieceset.aspx

xxein:  I still think it is more important to choose the right tool (available) for the job.  There are torque limits, time economy, accessibility etc. as considerations.  Thumb and fingers are great except for...  What?

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#529434

On 10/30/2015 10:56 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 21:43:40 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:
>
>>
>>     An excellent design using a 15° offset in open end wrenches, for hex
>>     bolts and nuts. Simple mathematics really.
>>
>
> Even better is the use of a ratcheting wrench.  No offset and
> no math required:
>
> http://store-planetools.com/ratchetingboxwrenchaviation7-pieceset.aspx

Yeah even better to use a wrench that won't fit the space! I love ivory 
tower types who have it all figured out and nothing they say really works.

Those particular ratcheting wrenches are stamped cheapo crap with very 
large ends that won't fit tight spaces (the spaces around nuts and bolts 
are always tight due to Murphy's Law). There are better ones.

I have some Sears wrenches that are forged and have ends only slightly 
bigger than your standard box-end wrench. Not bad. Of course a socket 
set is the usual solution to no space around the bolt or nut.

As for the box end tilted, it's true that it helps access. So some brain 
at Craftsman made these ratcheting wrenches (as above) and put swivels 
on the ratchet ends. One of those ivory tower things that sounds so good 
in your head but is really dumb in practice. What happens is that loose 
end then tends to flip up and come off the fastener. Great.

When you think about it, it is very interesting that the old inclined 
plane fastener has served mankind so well for so long in spite of all 
the cussing they have produced when stuck or inaccessible.


-- 

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    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#529445

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:

> 
> I love ivory 
> tower types who have it all figured out and nothing they say really works.
> 

Doesn't the average ivory tower contain nuts, bolts, and other fasteners
that occasionally need tightening with a wrench?

I know that mine does.

You forgot to mention that the force required to ratchet backwards
is at times much greater than the friction imparted by the bolt threads.
This situation will render a ratcheting device completely useless for
at least starting off the tightening process.

Yeah.  You forgot to mention that.  Maybe you should poke your head out
of your cloister every now and then.

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#529472

Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I love ivory 
>> tower types who have it all figured out and nothing they say really works.
>> 
> 
> Doesn't the average ivory tower contain nuts, bolts, and other fasteners
> that occasionally need tightening with a wrench?
> 
> I know that mine does.
> 
> You forgot to mention that the force required to ratchet backwards
> is at times much greater than the friction imparted by the bolt threads.
> This situation will render a ratcheting device completely useless for
> at least starting off the tightening process.

That's what fingers are for.

Use the tool appropriate for the task.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#529479

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:03:59 +0000, jimp wrote:

> 
> That's what fingers are for.
> 

Isn't removing bolts with just the fingers part of the Iron Man
contest?

If not, it certainly should be.

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#529491

Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 19:03:59 +0000, jimp wrote:
> 
>> 
>> That's what fingers are for.
>> 
> 
> Isn't removing bolts with just the fingers part of the Iron Man
> contest?

Isn't reading what's written a prerequisite for formulating a response?

If not, it certainly should be.

The subject was STARTING a nut.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#529518

On 10/31/2015 03:03 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> Fabian Russell <root@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I love ivory
>>> tower types who have it all figured out and nothing they say really works.
>>>
>>
>> Doesn't the average ivory tower contain nuts, bolts, and other fasteners
>> that occasionally need tightening with a wrench?
>>
>> I know that mine does.
>>
>> You forgot to mention that the force required to ratchet backwards
>> is at times much greater than the friction imparted by the bolt threads.
>> This situation will render a ratcheting device completely useless for
>> at least starting off the tightening process.
>
> That's what fingers are for.
>
> Use the tool appropriate for the task.

True but not necessarily the easiest!  My lawn mower has these covers 
each one held on with single bolt that you lift to clean all the grass 
and crap out of the belts etc. And I have one of those cheapo ratchet 
wrenches Fabian was recommending to open the covers. (So I don't lose 
one of my good Sears set out in the lawn somewhere)

Well to keep the covers from coming loose the fixed nuts are of the 
nylon binding type. So what you have is a very loose beginning where the 
ratch won't work at all and then it tightens up until ONLY the wrench 
will turn it. The problem, of course, is that it takes some pretty 
strong finger power to get the bolt to the point where the ratchet will 
work. Generally a socket set is better in this regard because you can 
use your other hand to grip the socket or extension shaft so the ratchet 
always works even if the bolt is totally loose. But I don't want to 
scatter socket set parts all over the lawn either, so you just make do 
with a half-baked situation.


-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#529547

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 17:07:55 -0400, benj wrote:

> 
> Well to keep the covers from coming loose the fixed nuts are of the 
> nylon binding type.
>

Hopefully the threads will last as long as the mower.

I neglected to grease the nylon gears on my garage door motor and in
short time they were abraded and ground into uselessness.  A new opener
costs about $400 but fortunately spare parts were available for only $49.95.
Why they can't use metal gears is beyond me.

Most of the mass-produced common lawn/garden equipment (all made in the
same Chinese factory but re-branded) have plastic housings assembled with
self-threading fasteners.  That is, the act of screwing in the screw
at the factory actually creates the threads within the plastic.  Most consumer
electronic cases are made in the same manner.  After several disassemblies,
the threads tend to be obliterated and the case will no longer hold
together properly.

Ideally, there should be threaded metal inserts within the plastic to
hold the screws but that simple change would reduce the profit by a
few cents on each item.

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#529612

On 10/31/2015 06:22 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 17:07:55 -0400, benj wrote:
>
>>
>> Well to keep the covers from coming loose the fixed nuts are of the
>> nylon binding type.
>>
>
> Hopefully the threads will last as long as the mower.
>
> I neglected to grease the nylon gears on my garage door motor and in
> short time they were abraded and ground into uselessness.  A new opener
> costs about $400 but fortunately spare parts were available for only $49.95.
> Why they can't use metal gears is beyond me.
>
> Most of the mass-produced common lawn/garden equipment (all made in the
> same Chinese factory but re-branded) have plastic housings assembled with
> self-threading fasteners.  That is, the act of screwing in the screw
> at the factory actually creates the threads within the plastic.  Most consumer
> electronic cases are made in the same manner.  After several disassemblies,
> the threads tend to be obliterated and the case will no longer hold
> together properly.
>
> Ideally, there should be threaded metal inserts within the plastic to
> hold the screws but that simple change would reduce the profit by a
> few cents on each item.

You said it. You can spend several grand for a guitar and find all the 
parts are held on by wood screws, even things like the battery cover 
which you take off all the time. Obviously that few extra cents for 
threaded inserts is really important to someone.

But oddly not all is gloom and doom! I remember when stuff made in Japan 
was total crap just like the cars coming out of Detroit. Metal that you 
could almost hear rusting! Cheap rubber parts that lasted a couple of 
years and were gone! But then something happened. First with cameras and 
then with other stuff. The Japanese decided that there really was a 
market for things built with quality and designed to last. In other 
words they'd use plastic if plastic worked, but when it didn't work 
they'd use something else that did. What a concept! A company call Kodak 
that dominated the photo business didn't believe in it! Say, what ever 
happened to that outfit? I guess their forward-looking leadership has 
just keep them dominating the market. <snort>

-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
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     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#529624

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 23:12:26 -0400, benj wrote:

>
> The Japanese decided that there really was a 
> market for things built with quality and designed to last.
>

It won't happen again.  In America, the land of the proliferating
dollar store, quality is destined never to be a priority.  By
creating the proper illusion, marketers have learned that junk
will always sell and will always maximize profit.

The best that can be done is to purchase goods made in Europe,
if possible.  In Europe the old consciousness of quality has
not faded to the same extreme.

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#529626

On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 9:03:19 PM UTC-7, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 23:12:26 -0400, benj wrote:
> 
> >
> > The Japanese decided that there really was a 
> > market for things built with quality and designed to last.
> >
> 
> It won't happen again.  In America, the land of the proliferating
> dollar store, quality is destined never to be a priority.  By
> creating the proper illusion, marketers have learned that junk
> will always sell and will always maximize profit.
> 
> The best that can be done is to purchase goods made in Europe,
> if possible.  In Europe the old consciousness of quality has
> not faded to the same extreme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_Inc.

Reef on that!  Stuff it you limey troll!

This is as much "theoretical or experimental 
physics" as "Zen" is "motorcycle maintenance".

Crescent and Channellock!

Wrenching ain't a problem, that's a simple machine!

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#529644

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 21:29:50 -0700, Ross A. Finlayson wrote:

> 
> Stuff it you limey troll!
> 

Limey?

That word hasn't been used since the Royal Navy gave
up on sodomy as a standard practice.

I suppose that your head, and ass, is still there.

This for you, scurvy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRotvCVKAe8

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#529641

Buy Apple Products

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#529704

On 11/01/2015 12:04 AM, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 23:12:26 -0400, benj wrote:
>
>>
>> The Japanese decided that there really was a
>> market for things built with quality and designed to last.
>>
>
> It won't happen again.  In America, the land of the proliferating
> dollar store, quality is destined never to be a priority.  By
> creating the proper illusion, marketers have learned that junk
> will always sell and will always maximize profit.
>
> The best that can be done is to purchase goods made in Europe,
> if possible.  In Europe the old consciousness of quality has
> not faded to the same extreme.

Not faded? Bwahaha! We were discussing Brit goods, right?  Euro quality 
can't fade because it was never there! Well, maybe German stuff can 
fade. They've got a pretty good start already. My old VW bug was truly a 
piece of shit. My conclusion from it was Germany was a tropical country. 
You do remember the Renault Dauphine, right? Recognized by Time Magazine 
as one of the 50 worst cars of all time.

What surprises me, is I remember when you'd go by import wrenches or 
other tools made in China and especially Taiwan and they were pure crap. 
Made out of ground up gummy bears or something. But today you can go 
online and for pennies on the dollar order totally high quality items 
even high tech items like America used to sell only from China for just 
pennies on the dollar!

For example: I just ordered a whole BOX full of stainless steel and 
hardened nickel steel mini pliars, cutters and such in a great variety 
for prices in the under a dollar range while comparable USA tools are 
going int he $15-$25 EACH range. Check out Pandahall.

Sure one can go on and on about Chinese child labor and sweatshops etc. 
But that's just the cheap part, it does not cover the improving quality 
part.

Still when it comes to some products like say my assault rifles, only 
Germans still have the old consciousness of quality that has not faded 
in the extreme as say it has here since the days of Browning. :-)

-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#529455

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:

> 
> So some brain 
> at Craftsman made these ratcheting wrenches (as above) and put swivels 
> on the ratchet ends. One of those ivory tower things that sounds so good 
> in your head but is really dumb in practice.
>

Dumb?  Maybe not.

Tools are a big business and the marketing types are more involved
in the design process than the engineers.  When the CMO says that
a gimmick is needed to boost sales, the engineers will be forced to
comply with a cheesy design.

As I said, you should raise the shades in your cloister once in a while
to get an occasional glimpse of the real world.

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#529516

On 10/31/2015 02:26 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 13:35:39 -0400, benj wrote:
>
>>
>> So some brain
>> at Craftsman made these ratcheting wrenches (as above) and put swivels
>> on the ratchet ends. One of those ivory tower things that sounds so good
>> in your head but is really dumb in practice.
>>
>
> Dumb?  Maybe not.
>
> Tools are a big business and the marketing types are more involved
> in the design process than the engineers.  When the CMO says that
> a gimmick is needed to boost sales, the engineers will be forced to
> comply with a cheesy design.
>
> As I said, you should raise the shades in your cloister once in a while
> to get an occasional glimpse of the real world.

Unfortunately I am much too familiar with the "real" world.  You make 
the salient point: Marketing types have no more experience with an 
actual wrench than do Ivory tower types calculating the torque and 
forces produced by a 15 degree offset.

As an insurance salesman once told me (He thought we should start a 
business together): "You've got the intelligence, but I've got the 'savvy'"!

Aside: There is a neighborhood near where I live (I'm downtown in the 
inner city) infested with university and salesmen types. It is trash 
picking heaven! These guys would have a problem figuring out which end 
of a working soldering iron is the handle! Anyway, My bank used to be up 
there, And so I would make my way through all manner of brand new 
appliances sitting on the curb waiting for the rubbish truck. Virtually 
all only needed a drop of oil or tightened screw to be restored to 
operation. Cripes,  I never bought an appliance until that bank closed!

The beauty of being an experimentalist rather than a theoretician is 
that you not only know how to calculate the torque from a 15 degree 
offset, but you also know how to use a wrench to yank the head off your 
classic E-type Jaguar. (Yes, I had one and it was a master class in car 
repair)

-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#529527

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:56:45 -0400, benj wrote:

> 
> The beauty of being an experimentalist rather than a theoretician is 
> that you not only know how to calculate the torque from a 15 degree 
> offset, but you also know how to use a wrench to yank the head off your 
> classic E-type Jaguar.
>

The prime dictum has always been that a workman must understand his
tools.  This may be given less respect nowadays but it is still something
to strive for.

A LOT can be said about even simple tools, as these nice folks discuss:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?&t=168610

Whew!

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#529534

On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 16:56:45 -0400, benj wrote:

> 
> As an insurance salesman once told me (He thought we should start a 
> business together): "You've got the intelligence, but I've got the 'savvy'"!
> 

Hmm.  I wonder what the articles of incorporation would have stated?

A 50:50 even split?  Nah.  It should be 60:40.  Or even 70:30.

But which side gets which?  Ha, ha, ha, ha!

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