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Groups > sci.physics > #581420 > unrolled thread
| Started by | HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-05-29 06:27 -0700 |
| Last post | 2016-06-03 11:02 -0500 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 135 — 9 participants |
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BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-29 06:27 -0700
BJ Believes john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-05-29 06:43 -0700
BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-29 06:54 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-29 12:58 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 09:15 -0500
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 07:18 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-31 10:45 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 07:51 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-31 12:13 -0400
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-31 10:54 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 08:14 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-31 12:18 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 08:19 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-31 12:20 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 11:38 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-31 14:38 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 13:49 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-01 00:24 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 09:36 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-01 13:01 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 10:43 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-31 12:27 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 11:48 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-31 15:10 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 12:37 -0700
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 14:50 -0500
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 17:32 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-01 01:12 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 03:45 -0700
Re: BJ Believes john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 05:43 -0700
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 11:06 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-01 00:45 -0400
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-01 00:27 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 03:34 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-01 12:54 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-31 14:48 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-01 00:43 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 09:36 -0500
Re: BJ Believes ClutterFreak <ClutterFreak@FakeAddress.com> - 2016-05-29 14:25 -0500
Re: BJ Believes "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2016-05-29 13:50 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-29 12:48 -0400
Re: BJ Believes "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 11:34 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-01 20:41 -0400
Re: BJ Believes "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 18:03 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-01 22:12 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 10:28 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-02 12:03 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 11:34 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-02 18:48 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 18:01 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-02 20:09 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 20:17 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 00:45 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 05:02 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 09:47 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 07:08 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 10:45 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 06:56 -0500
Re: BJ Believes "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 15:15 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-02 19:41 -0400
Re: BJ Believes "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 21:38 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 03:13 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 07:21 -0500
Re: BJ Believes john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 05:50 -0700
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:00 -0500
Re: BJ Believes john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 06:51 -0700
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:53 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 10:20 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 09:24 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 10:54 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:41 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 14:21 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 10:48 -0500
Re: BJ Believes Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 09:01 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 14:32 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 13:58 -0500
Re: BJ Believes Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 15:02 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 23:53 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 06:08 -0700
Re: BJ Believes ClutterFreak <ClutterFreak@FakeAddress.com> - 2016-06-03 13:50 -0500
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 14:26 -0500
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 07:44 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 14:18 -0400
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 09:57 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 09:07 -0500
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 07:23 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 10:45 -0400
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 10:35 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 07:55 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 14:19 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 10:41 -0500
Re: BJ Believes ClutterFreak <ClutterFreak@FakeAddress.com> - 2016-06-03 13:42 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 09:51 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 09:00 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-03 10:27 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 10:26 -0500
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 13:59 -0500
Re: BJ Believes "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 13:40 -0700
Re: BJ Believes jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 21:11 +0000
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-08 17:38 -0400
Re: BJ Believes jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 22:50 +0000
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-08 20:34 -0400
Re: BJ Believes "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2016-06-08 19:21 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-09 02:43 -0400
Re: BJ Believes jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-09 02:34 +0000
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-09 02:48 -0400
Re: BJ Believes jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-09 16:34 +0000
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-08 17:27 -0400
Re: BJ Believes "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 21:16 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-09 03:38 -0400
Re: BJ Believes "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 01:56 -0700
Re: BJ Believes john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 06:38 -0700
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 07:23 -0700
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 10:49 -0500
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 09:13 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-08 17:07 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 16:16 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-08 17:41 -0400
Re: BJ Believes "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 14:53 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-08 20:28 -0400
Re: BJ Believes "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2016-06-08 19:21 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-09 02:41 -0400
Re: BJ Believes "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 13:30 -0700
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 20:10 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-01 22:14 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 10:28 -0500
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-02 12:05 -0400
Re: BJ Believes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 11:36 -0500
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 04:13 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-02 12:00 -0400
Re: BJ Believes HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 09:38 -0700
Re: BJ Believes benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-02 18:49 -0400
Re: BenJacoby would have everyone believe in Santa Claus. benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-02 12:11 -0400
Re: Jesus Christ and Santa Claus were invented for people like you. benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-02 19:07 -0400
Re: Correlation doesn’t imply causation. ClutterFreak <ClutterFreak@FakeAddress.com> - 2016-06-03 11:02 -0500
Page 3 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 Next page →
| From | benj <nobodyxx@gmail> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-29 12:48 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <574b1d6d$0$7388$c3e8da3$66d3cc2f@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #581420 |
On 05/29/2016 09:27 AM, HVAC wrote: > > ...In these so called near death experiences. Yes, as crazy as it > sounds, BJ actually believes those liars and frauds who report these > stories. But is anyone surprised to hear this? No. Since he believes > in ghosts, demons and esp, it's not much of a leap to believing crazy > stories of people who come back from being unconscious. > > Right right? Actually the people who I believe to be liars and frauds are the ones claiming superpowers and ESP (Like HVAC) so say they know what everyone is thinking even if they are saying nothing. HVAC believes he can do this and that he "knows" that persons with NDE are liars. Evidence is that HVAC is the liar. He does NOT know what people think, does NOT have "superpowers" and does NOT have ESP. Evidence is that people with NDE actually experienced what they describe (whatever that was) and hence are not "liars" as ignorant journalist HVAC says.
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| From | "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 11:34 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ad980d5a-3221-4cc2-829b-a1f412c47f8e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #581486 |
On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:48:49 AM UTC-7, benj wrote: > On 05/29/2016 09:27 AM, HVAC wrote: > > > > ...In these so called near death experiences. Yes, as crazy as it > > sounds, BJ actually believes those liars and frauds who report these > > stories. But is anyone surprised to hear this? No. Since he believes > > in ghosts, demons and esp, it's not much of a leap to believing crazy > > stories of people who come back from being unconscious. > > > > Right right? > > Actually the people who I believe to be liars and frauds are the ones > claiming superpowers and ESP (Like HVAC) so say they know what everyone > is thinking even if they are saying nothing. Like when you say that evolutionists are by definition amoral? Mark L. fergerson
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| From | benj <nobodyxx@gmail> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 20:41 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <574f80c8$0$43718$c3e8da3$5e5e430d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #582188 |
On 06/01/2016 02:34 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: > On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:48:49 AM UTC-7, benj wrote: >> On 05/29/2016 09:27 AM, HVAC wrote: >>> >>> ...In these so called near death experiences. Yes, as crazy as it >>> sounds, BJ actually believes those liars and frauds who report these >>> stories. But is anyone surprised to hear this? No. Since he believes >>> in ghosts, demons and esp, it's not much of a leap to believing crazy >>> stories of people who come back from being unconscious. >>> >>> Right right? >> >> Actually the people who I believe to be liars and frauds are the ones >> claiming superpowers and ESP (Like HVAC) so say they know what everyone >> is thinking even if they are saying nothing. > > Like when you say that evolutionists are by definition amoral? Wait a minute! It's by DEFINITION they are amoral. I don't say I know what they actually believe (like you know who does). I can only say that if they follow the logic of Evolution and atheism by definition you are led to a place were morality does not exist, but only animal instinct. Right?
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| From | "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 18:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ab55e5fd-1f8f-4f4c-974c-98d8ca07dfe0@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #582228 |
On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 5:41:48 PM UTC-7, benj wrote: > On 06/01/2016 02:34 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: > > On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:48:49 AM UTC-7, benj wrote: > >> On 05/29/2016 09:27 AM, HVAC wrote: > >>> > >>> ...In these so called near death experiences. Yes, as crazy as it > >>> sounds, BJ actually believes those liars and frauds who report these > >>> stories. But is anyone surprised to hear this? No. Since he believes > >>> in ghosts, demons and esp, it's not much of a leap to believing crazy > >>> stories of people who come back from being unconscious. > >>> > >>> Right right? > >> > >> Actually the people who I believe to be liars and frauds are the ones > >> claiming superpowers and ESP (Like HVAC) so say they know what everyone > >> is thinking even if they are saying nothing. > > > > Like when you say that evolutionists are by definition amoral? > > Wait a minute! It's by DEFINITION they are amoral. Yes, exactly like that. > I don't say I know what they actually believe (like you know who does). Then you're expressing your belief about what somebody else believes, like you know who does. > I can only say that if they follow the logic of Evolution and atheism by > definition Perhaps it would help if you laid out what you think that logic (as if there were one form of logic common to both) consists of. > you are led to a place were morality does not exist, but only animal instinct. Also, it might help if you laid out what you think "animal instinct" is, and why it should be taken to be the limiting factor in human behavior. > Right? No, apparently you are though. While we're at it, you might lay out what you think "morality" is, and what is a valid basis of morality. Mark L. Fergerson
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| From | benj <nobodyxx@gmail> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 22:12 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <574f95f1$0$22623$b1db1813$145976f0@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #582230 |
On 06/01/2016 09:03 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: > On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 5:41:48 PM UTC-7, benj wrote: >> On 06/01/2016 02:34 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: >>> On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:48:49 AM UTC-7, benj wrote: >>>> On 05/29/2016 09:27 AM, HVAC wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ...In these so called near death experiences. Yes, as crazy >>>>> as it sounds, BJ actually believes those liars and frauds who >>>>> report these stories. But is anyone surprised to hear this? >>>>> No. Since he believes in ghosts, demons and esp, it's not >>>>> much of a leap to believing crazy stories of people who come >>>>> back from being unconscious. >>>>> >>>>> Right right? >>>> >>>> Actually the people who I believe to be liars and frauds are >>>> the ones claiming superpowers and ESP (Like HVAC) so say they >>>> know what everyone is thinking even if they are saying >>>> nothing. >>> >>> Like when you say that evolutionists are by definition amoral? >> >> Wait a minute! It's by DEFINITION they are amoral. > > Yes, exactly like that. > >> I don't say I know what they actually believe (like you know who >> does). > > Then you're expressing your belief about what somebody else believes, > like you know who does. Not so. I'm expressing the logical conclusion that IF a person believes in the principles of the idea, then it follows that the conclusions that flow from that idea are also present. They actually may or may not believe these tenets, but that also means they may or may not actually be followers of the idea they say they follow. >> I can only say that if they follow the logic of Evolution and >> atheism by definition > > Perhaps it would help if you laid out what you think that logic (as > if there were one form of logic common to both) consists of. Take the evolution paradigm. Things develop by chance with out any goal. It is said to be a progressive development, hence animals are simply earlier stages of ourselves according to this idea. Hence the basic systems of all kinds in the animal kingdom represent the basis for our own systems. That is the logic of it. >> you are led to a place were morality does not exist, but only >> animal instinct. > > Also, it might help if you laid out what you think "animal instinct" > is, and why it should be taken to be the limiting factor in human > behavior. Animal behavior is no mystery. Animals do not commit murder. They kill, but in spite of humans overlaying their own concepts on animals, they just don't fit. If a dog kills a baby, people kill the dog as if it's been convicted of murder. This isn't what the dog is doing. The animal kills, it steals, it competes for mates, it uses all manner of "lies" to survive from imitating predators to imitating environment and behavior so prey drop their guard and can be killed. You, know mark, just like humans always do! I'm not defending or criticizing evolution as an idea, just pointing out the logic behind it. Interestingly, Evolutionists are so imbued with Christian and other religious doctrine such as non-animal ideas of "sin" and "morality" and so forth that they feel compelled to somehow adopt it as part of their theory even though it clearly has come from some other place. Can your dog "sin"? Does it have "morals"? I don't think so. So why should this apply to you if you agree that all life just self-generates by chance without any goal?
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 10:28 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nipj9v$u7o$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #582255 |
On 6/1/2016 9:12 PM, benj wrote: > On 06/01/2016 09:03 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: >> Also, it might help if you laid out what you think "animal instinct" >> is, and why it should be taken to be the limiting factor in human >> behavior. > > Animal behavior is no mystery. Animals do not commit murder. They kill, > but in spite of humans overlaying their own concepts on animals, they > just don't fit. If a dog kills a baby, people kill the dog as if it's > been convicted of murder. This isn't what the dog is doing. The animal > kills, it steals, it competes for mates, it uses all manner of "lies" to > survive from imitating predators to imitating environment and behavior > so prey drop their guard and can be killed. You, know mark, just like > humans always do! > > I'm not defending or criticizing evolution as an idea, just pointing out > the logic behind it. Interestingly, Evolutionists are so imbued with > Christian and other religious doctrine such as non-animal ideas of "sin" > and "morality" and so forth that they feel compelled to somehow adopt it > as part of their theory even though it clearly has come from some other > place. Can your dog "sin"? Does it have "morals"? I don't think so. So > why should this apply to you if you agree that all life just > self-generates by chance without any goal? > Animals also exhibit sacrificial altruistic behavior. They also demonstrate behaviors consistent with a sense of fairness. Are you unaware of this? -- Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | benj <nobodyxx@gmail> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 12:03 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <575058db$0$7353$c3e8da3$66d3cc2f@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #582323 |
On 06/02/2016 11:28 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote: > On 6/1/2016 9:12 PM, benj wrote: >> On 06/01/2016 09:03 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: > >>> Also, it might help if you laid out what you think "animal instinct" >>> is, and why it should be taken to be the limiting factor in human >>> behavior. >> >> Animal behavior is no mystery. Animals do not commit murder. They kill, >> but in spite of humans overlaying their own concepts on animals, they >> just don't fit. If a dog kills a baby, people kill the dog as if it's >> been convicted of murder. This isn't what the dog is doing. The animal >> kills, it steals, it competes for mates, it uses all manner of "lies" to >> survive from imitating predators to imitating environment and behavior >> so prey drop their guard and can be killed. You, know mark, just like >> humans always do! >> >> I'm not defending or criticizing evolution as an idea, just pointing out >> the logic behind it. Interestingly, Evolutionists are so imbued with >> Christian and other religious doctrine such as non-animal ideas of "sin" >> and "morality" and so forth that they feel compelled to somehow adopt it >> as part of their theory even though it clearly has come from some other >> place. Can your dog "sin"? Does it have "morals"? I don't think so. So >> why should this apply to you if you agree that all life just >> self-generates by chance without any goal? >> > > Animals also exhibit sacrificial altruistic behavior. They also > demonstrate behaviors consistent with a sense of fairness. Are you > unaware of this? They are just influenced by human owners which in turn are operating under their religious beliefs. Wild animals don't do this. It's all instinct.
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 11:34 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nipn5m$140m$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #582337 |
On 6/2/2016 11:03 AM, benj wrote: > On 06/02/2016 11:28 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote: >> >> Animals also exhibit sacrificial altruistic behavior. They also >> demonstrate behaviors consistent with a sense of fairness. Are you >> unaware of this? > > They are just influenced by human owners which in turn are operating > under their religious beliefs. Wild animals don't do this. It's all > instinct. > Ben, you are talking out of your ass. And an ignorant ass, to boot. Unless you are just saying shit you know is wrong, for baiting purposes. -- Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | benj <nobodyxx@gmail> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 18:48 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <5750b7b5$0$46788$c3e8da3$e074e489@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #582343 |
On 06/02/2016 12:34 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote: > On 6/2/2016 11:03 AM, benj wrote: >> On 06/02/2016 11:28 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote: > >>> >>> Animals also exhibit sacrificial altruistic behavior. They also >>> demonstrate behaviors consistent with a sense of fairness. Are you >>> unaware of this? >> >> They are just influenced by human owners which in turn are operating >> under their religious beliefs. Wild animals don't do this. It's all >> instinct. >> > > Ben, you are talking out of your ass. And an ignorant ass, to boot. > Unless you are just saying shit you know is wrong, for baiting purposes. You are determined not to understand the basis of your own beliefs! I thought you were interested in science?
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 18:01 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <niqdsm$6oj$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #582432 |
On 6/2/2016 5:48 PM, benj wrote: > On 06/02/2016 12:34 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote: >> On 6/2/2016 11:03 AM, benj wrote: >>> On 06/02/2016 11:28 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote: >> >>>> >>>> Animals also exhibit sacrificial altruistic behavior. They also >>>> demonstrate behaviors consistent with a sense of fairness. Are you >>>> unaware of this? >>> >>> They are just influenced by human owners which in turn are operating >>> under their religious beliefs. Wild animals don't do this. It's all >>> instinct. >>> >> >> Ben, you are talking out of your ass. And an ignorant ass, to boot. >> Unless you are just saying shit you know is wrong, for baiting purposes. > > You are determined not to understand the basis of your own beliefs! > I thought you were interested in science? > > Ben, there is nothing in science that says what you claim. In fact, scientific observations are counter to your claim. What you claim is just flat bullshit, out and out, and you have yet to even ATTEMPT to defend it. -- Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | benj <nobodyxx@gmail> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 20:09 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <5750caa6$0$34696$c3e8da3$dbd57e7@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #582438 |
On 06/02/2016 07:01 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote: > On 6/2/2016 5:48 PM, benj wrote: >> On 06/02/2016 12:34 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote: >>> On 6/2/2016 11:03 AM, benj wrote: >>>> On 06/02/2016 11:28 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote: >>> >>>>> >>>>> Animals also exhibit sacrificial altruistic behavior. They also >>>>> demonstrate behaviors consistent with a sense of fairness. Are you >>>>> unaware of this? >>>> >>>> They are just influenced by human owners which in turn are operating >>>> under their religious beliefs. Wild animals don't do this. It's all >>>> instinct. >>>> >>> >>> Ben, you are talking out of your ass. And an ignorant ass, to boot. >>> Unless you are just saying shit you know is wrong, for baiting purposes. >> >> You are determined not to understand the basis of your own beliefs! >> I thought you were interested in science? >> >> > > Ben, there is nothing in science that says what you claim. In fact, > scientific observations are counter to your claim. What you claim is > just flat bullshit, out and out, and you have yet to even ATTEMPT to > defend it. So you are trying to defend that animals have morality and that animals can sin? Wow! And then have the nerve to say that nothing in science says that animals kill, steal, lie, take mates and so forth? What world do you live in?
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| From | HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 20:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4c9d7b43-4682-41ec-87a5-4c815b74a32a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #582456 |
BJ quacked So you are trying to defend that animals have morality and that animals can sin? Wow! And then have the nerve to say that nothing in science says that animals kill, -------- As do humans steal, --------- As do humans lie, ---------- Just like humans take mates and so forth? --------- Exactly like humans What world Do you live in? ------- Seems like humans and animals have a lot in common.
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| From | benj <nobodyxx@gmail> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 00:45 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <57510b5b$0$7354$c3e8da3$66d3cc2f@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #582484 |
On 06/02/2016 11:17 PM, HVAC wrote: > BJ quacked > So you are trying to defend that animals have morality and that animals > can sin? Wow! And then have the nerve to say that nothing in science > says that animals kill, > -------- > > As do humans > > > steal, > --------- > > As do humans > > > lie, > ---------- > > Just like humans > > > take mates and so forth? > --------- > > Exactly like humans > > > > What world Do you live in? > ------- > > Seems like humans and animals have a lot in common. I've been making this point here, but all you atheist/evolootionists are arguing your asses off that this is total garbage! I'm thinking you are all double secret Christians!
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| From | HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 05:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e9dfd1b1-a7a1-4d1c-bfa8-60c1a2e6d4de@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #582506 |
BJ quacked > Seems like humans and animals have a lot in common. I've been making this point here, but all you atheist/evolootionists are arguing your asses off that this is total garbage! ----------- No BJ. That's just you deliberately misconstruing other's points and then arguing against the points that you, yourself made up. What I showed above is how similar humans and animals are. This is clearly obvious to anyone who isn't swept up in the bullshit of religion as are you. The difference is that humans, through evolutionary processes, developed sets of behaviors which gave them an advantage in surviving increasingly changing environments. These behaviors such as language and the use of fire as a way to pre digest food, led to increased brain size and all that comes from that. Your insistence that paranormal intervention created humans is the paradigm which was shoved down your throat as a child. Then twisted by your kooky thought processes into whatever the fuck you believe in now....God, ancient aliens, crab people, whatever
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| From | benj <nobodyxx@gmail> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 09:47 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <57518a7e$0$27706$c3e8da3$fdf4f6af@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #582532 |
On 06/03/2016 08:02 AM, HVAC drooled: > BJ quacked >> Seems like humans and animals have a lot in common. > > I've been making this point here, but all you atheist/evolootionists are arguing your asses off that this is total garbage! > ----------- > > No BJ. That's just you deliberately misconstruing other's points and then arguing against the points that you, yourself made up. > > What I showed above is how similar humans and animals are. This is clearly obvious to anyone who isn't swept up in the bullshit of religion as are you. The difference is that humans, through evolutionary processes, developed sets of behaviors which gave them an advantage in surviving increasingly changing environments. > These behaviors such as language and the use of fire as a way to pre digest food, led to increased brain size and all that comes from that. > > Your insistence that paranormal intervention created humans is the paradigm which was shoved down your throat as a child. Then twisted by your kooky thought processes into whatever the fuck you believe in now....God, ancient aliens, crab people, whatever > Insane babble. I have said none of this. HVAC is just drooling in a corner. He's harmless. If you believe any of this you are a gullible idiot. HVAC has NO idea what I "believe" and it's irrelevant as well.
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| From | HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 07:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <e3775aa0-68a5-4e8c-9fdb-5b52774fc86d@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #582561 |
> Your insistence that paranormal intervention created humans is the paradigm which was shoved down your throat as a child. Then twisted by your kooky thought processes into whatever the fuck you believe in now....God, ancient aliens, crab people, whatever > Insane babble. I have said none of this. HVAC is just drooling in a corner. He's harmless. If you believe any of this you are a gullible idiot. HVAC has NO idea what I "believe" and it's irrelevant as well. ----------- You've said that you believe in god. You've said that you believe in ancient aliens. Crab people was brought up by me to make fun of you and your kooky ideas. Stop fighting it BJ. Embrace your inner kook. PS- BJ believes in ghosts too
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| From | benj <nobodyxx@gmail> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 10:45 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <57519802$0$7288$c3e8da3$66d3cc2f@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #582572 |
On 06/03/2016 10:08 AM, HVAC wrote: > >> Your insistence that paranormal intervention created humans is the paradigm which was shoved down your throat as a child. Then twisted by your kooky thought processes into whatever the fuck you believe in now....God, ancient aliens, crab people, whatever >> > Insane babble. I have said none of this. HVAC is just drooling in a > corner. He's harmless. > > If you believe any of this you are a gullible idiot. HVAC has NO idea > what I "believe" and it's irrelevant as well. > ----------- > > You've said that you believe in god. You've said that you believe in ancient aliens. Crab people was brought up by me to make fun of you and your kooky ideas. > > Stop fighting it BJ. Embrace your inner kook. > > PS- BJ believes in ghosts too Blowhard.
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| From | Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 06:56 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nirr9e$kf$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #582456 |
On 6/2/2016 7:09 PM, benj wrote: > On 06/02/2016 07:01 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote: >> On 6/2/2016 5:48 PM, benj wrote: >>> On 06/02/2016 12:34 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote: >>>> On 6/2/2016 11:03 AM, benj wrote: >>>>> On 06/02/2016 11:28 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Animals also exhibit sacrificial altruistic behavior. They also >>>>>> demonstrate behaviors consistent with a sense of fairness. Are you >>>>>> unaware of this? >>>>> >>>>> They are just influenced by human owners which in turn are operating >>>>> under their religious beliefs. Wild animals don't do this. It's all >>>>> instinct. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Ben, you are talking out of your ass. And an ignorant ass, to boot. >>>> Unless you are just saying shit you know is wrong, for baiting >>>> purposes. >>> >>> You are determined not to understand the basis of your own beliefs! >>> I thought you were interested in science? >>> >>> >> >> Ben, there is nothing in science that says what you claim. In fact, >> scientific observations are counter to your claim. What you claim is >> just flat bullshit, out and out, and you have yet to even ATTEMPT to >> defend it. > > So you are trying to defend that animals have morality and that animals > can sin? Replacing one strawman with another. Animals in the wild exhibit sacrificial altruism and behavior reflecting an awareness of fairness, things you claim cannot exist. > Wow! And then have the nerve to say that nothing in science > says that animals kill, steal, lie, take mates and so forth? What world > do you live in? Again, not going to react to black-white strawmen. Note that people kill, steal, like, take mates, and in these respects are no different than OTHER animals. -- Odd Bodkin --- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
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| From | "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 15:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c20a1576-210f-439e-a7c1-01a667efc17b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #582255 |
On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 7:12:06 PM UTC-7, benj wrote: > On 06/01/2016 09:03 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: > > On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 5:41:48 PM UTC-7, benj wrote: > >> On 06/01/2016 02:34 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: > >>> On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:48:49 AM UTC-7, benj wrote: > >>>> On 05/29/2016 09:27 AM, HVAC wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> ...In these so called near death experiences. Yes, as crazy > >>>>> as it sounds, BJ actually believes those liars and frauds who > >>>>> report these stories. But is anyone surprised to hear this? > >>>>> No. Since he believes in ghosts, demons and esp, it's not > >>>>> much of a leap to believing crazy stories of people who come > >>>>> back from being unconscious. > >>>>> > >>>>> Right right? > >>>> > >>>> Actually the people who I believe to be liars and frauds are > >>>> the ones claiming superpowers and ESP (Like HVAC) so say they > >>>> know what everyone is thinking even if they are saying > >>>> nothing. > >>> > >>> Like when you say that evolutionists are by definition amoral? > >> > >> Wait a minute! It's by DEFINITION they are amoral. > > > > Yes, exactly like that. > > > >> I don't say I know what they actually believe (like you know who > >> does). > > > > Then you're expressing your belief about what somebody else believes, > > like you know who does. > > Not so. I'm expressing the logical conclusion that IF a person believes > in the principles of the idea, then it follows that the conclusions that > flow from that idea You mean, the conclusions *you* draw. > ...are also present. They actually may or may not believe these tenets, but > that also means they may or may not actually be followers of the idea they > say they follow. Or, maybe they just don't draw the same conclusions you do because they don't base their logic on the same false premises? > >> I can only say that if they follow the logic of Evolution and > >> atheism by definition > > > > Perhaps it would help if you laid out what you think that logic (as > > if there were one form of logic common to both) consists of. > > Take the evolution paradigm. Things develop by chance with out any goal. You're batting .500 so far; no "guiding hand" is required to explain what we see, but the goal of all life is surviving long enough to reproduce. > It is said to be a progressive development, hence animals are simply > earlier stages of ourselves according to this idea. No. That's the old "humans are descended from monkeys/apes" deliberate misinterpretation of evolution that originated from religious adherents. We did not evolve from monkeys or apes, we share common ancestors with them. Their evolution was *separate* from ours. What they are, we cannot become, and vice versa. That last part is important so I'll expand on it- no matter how you crossbreed monkeys or apes, you will never get a human. Evolution is *not* "progressive" in any sense. It is indeed random (or was, until we started looking at genes and thinking we might be able to tweak them better than the random way Nature does). Seeing "progression" in evolution is pareidolia. > Hence the basic systems of all kinds in the animal kingdom represent the > basis for our own systems. That is the logic of it. That conclusion follows from the three false premises I pointed out. > >> you are led to a place were morality does not exist, but only > >> animal instinct. I notice you snipped out the part where I asked you to "lay out what you think "morality" is, and what is a valid basis of morality"- I'll get back to that below. > > Also, it might help if you laid out what you think "animal instinct" > > is, and why it should be taken to be the limiting factor in human > > behavior. > > Animal behavior is no mystery. Animals do not commit murder. They kill, > but in spite of humans overlaying their own concepts on animals, they > just don't fit. If a dog kills a baby, people kill the dog as if it's > been convicted of murder. This isn't what the dog is doing. The animal > kills, it steals, it competes for mates, it uses all manner of "lies" to > survive from imitating predators to imitating environment and behavior > so prey drop their guard and can be killed. You, know mark, just like > humans always do! That's no definition of "animal instinct". Nor do you explain why the behaviors you listed should be taken as the limits of human behavior. > I'm not defending or criticizing evolution as an idea, just pointing out > the logic behind it. Interestingly, Evolutionists are so imbued with > Christian and other religious doctrine such as non-animal ideas of "sin" > and "morality" and so forth that they feel compelled to somehow adopt it > as part of their theory even though it clearly has come from some other > place. Can your dog "sin"? Does it have "morals"? I don't think so. So > why should this apply to you if you agree that all life just > self-generates by chance without any goal? You're the only participant in this thread as far as I can see that has related religion to morality, apparently because you think religious principles are the sole valid basis of morality. If I have that last bit wrong, this is the perfect place for you to correct me. Please explain what you think "morality" is, and what is a valid basis of morality. Mark L. Fergerson
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| From | benj <nobodyxx@gmail> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 19:41 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <5750c42d$0$9165$c3e8da3$5d8fb80f@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #582422 |
On 06/02/2016 06:15 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: > On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 7:12:06 PM UTC-7, benj wrote: >> On 06/01/2016 09:03 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: >>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 5:41:48 PM UTC-7, benj wrote: >>>> On 06/01/2016 02:34 PM, nuny@bid.nes wrote: >>>>> On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 9:48:49 AM UTC-7, benj wrote: >>>>>> On 05/29/2016 09:27 AM, HVAC wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...In these so called near death experiences. Yes, as >>>>>>> crazy as it sounds, BJ actually believes those liars and >>>>>>> frauds who report these stories. But is anyone surprised >>>>>>> to hear this? No. Since he believes in ghosts, demons and >>>>>>> esp, it's not much of a leap to believing crazy stories >>>>>>> of people who come back from being unconscious. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Right right? >>>>>> >>>>>> Actually the people who I believe to be liars and frauds >>>>>> are the ones claiming superpowers and ESP (Like HVAC) so >>>>>> say they know what everyone is thinking even if they are >>>>>> saying nothing. >>>>> >>>>> Like when you say that evolutionists are by definition >>>>> amoral? >>>> >>>> Wait a minute! It's by DEFINITION they are amoral. >>> >>> Yes, exactly like that. >>> >>>> I don't say I know what they actually believe (like you know >>>> who does). >>> >>> Then you're expressing your belief about what somebody else >>> believes, like you know who does. >> >> Not so. I'm expressing the logical conclusion that IF a person >> believes in the principles of the idea, then it follows that the >> conclusions that flow from that idea > > You mean, the conclusions *you* draw. Obviously. You are permitted to draw any conclusions you like. Even erroneous ones. >> ...are also present. They actually may or may not believe these >> tenets, but that also means they may or may not actually be >> followers of the idea they say they follow. > > Or, maybe they just don't draw the same conclusions you do because > they don't base their logic on the same false premises? Amd that "false" premise is? >>>> I can only say that if they follow the logic of Evolution and >>>> atheism by definition >>> >>> Perhaps it would help if you laid out what you think that logic >>> (as if there were one form of logic common to both) consists of. >> >> Take the evolution paradigm. Things develop by chance with out any >> goal. > > You're batting .500 so far; no "guiding hand" is required to explain > what we see, but the goal of all life is surviving long enough to > reproduce. No, You only have your opinion not agreeing with mine. You DO agree that evolution has no "guiding hand" or "intelligent design" right? Hence there is no "goal" set into the system. >> It is said to be a progressive development, hence animals are >> simply earlier stages of ourselves according to this idea. > > No. That's the old "humans are descended from monkeys/apes" > deliberate misinterpretation of evolution that originated from > religious adherents. We did not evolve from monkeys or apes, we share > common ancestors with them. Their evolution was *separate* from ours. > What they are, we cannot become, and vice versa. That last part is > important so I'll expand on it- no matter how you crossbreed monkeys > or apes, you will never get a human. So you are saying that evolution is NOT "tree"? That if several species branch from a common ancestor that is not a "progression"? That is obviously not true. The whole "tree" idea is a progression from simple to more complex. Are you saying I cannot modify ape DNA and get human characteristics? Are you saying that I cannot introduce ape characteristics into humans by genetic manipulation? You KNOW that is true. Using the word "crossbreeding" is incorrect as well because evolution supposedly works not by "breeding" but by random mutations. > Evolution is *not* "progressive" in any sense. It is indeed random > (or was, until we started looking at genes and thinking we might be > able to tweak them better than the random way Nature does). > > Seeing "progression" in evolution is pareidolia. So you think that evolution "trees" are just Mary on a piece of toast? That is quite an argument! Having man jump full blown into existence with no ancestors or "tree" sounds a lot like "creation science" to me. You do know that is a 'forbidden topic' right? >> Hence the basic systems of all kinds in the animal kingdom >> represent the basis for our own systems. That is the logic of it. > > That conclusion follows from the three false premises I pointed out. Did not successfully prove your points. >>>> you are led to a place were morality does not exist, but only >>>> animal instinct. > > I notice you snipped out the part where I asked you to "lay out what > you think "morality" is, and what is a valid basis of morality"- I'll > get back to that below. > >>> Also, it might help if you laid out what you think "animal >>> instinct" is, and why it should be taken to be the limiting >>> factor in human behavior. >> >> Animal behavior is no mystery. Animals do not commit murder. They >> kill, but in spite of humans overlaying their own concepts on >> animals, they just don't fit. If a dog kills a baby, people kill >> the dog as if it's been convicted of murder. This isn't what the >> dog is doing. The animal kills, it steals, it competes for mates, >> it uses all manner of "lies" to survive from imitating predators to >> imitating environment and behavior so prey drop their guard and can >> be killed. You, know mark, just like humans always do! > > That's no definition of "animal instinct". The evolution theory is that "instict" is behavioral patterns that help the species to survive and continue. > Nor do you explain why the behaviors you listed should be taken as > the limits of human behavior. I say morality, ethics, honesty etc. are behaviors humans have adopted that are beyond instinct and given as limits on human behavior. Evolution would appear to contain no such limits. You haven't answered my question if your dog and "sin". >> I'm not defending or criticizing evolution as an idea, just >> pointing out the logic behind it. Interestingly, Evolutionists are >> so imbued with Christian and other religious doctrine such as >> non-animal ideas of "sin" and "morality" and so forth that they >> feel compelled to somehow adopt it as part of their theory even >> though it clearly has come from some other place. Can your dog >> "sin"? Does it have "morals"? I don't think so. So why should this >> apply to you if you agree that all life just self-generates by >> chance without any goal? > > You're the only participant in this thread as far as I can see that > has related religion to morality, apparently because you think > religious principles are the sole valid basis of morality. Well, you know when I was a kid my mom used to say to me: "Well I suppose you are the only one in the whole world who is right and every body else is wrong!" Well that worked for a while, but one day I realized that it actually WAS possible for me to be "right" and everyone else in the whole world to be "wrong"! You seem to forget that your evolution religion is very very new. virtually ALL of life throughout millennia of history has been ruled by religions of all kinds. Their influence is totally pervasive even today. Sure morality is today often justified on bases other than religious beliefs, but it's pretty clear that ideas of say certain acts are "wrong" even though animals don't view things that way, are of religious origin. Ten Commandments being a prime example of pervasive ideas. > If I have that last bit wrong, this is the perfect place for you to > correct me. > > Please explain what you think "morality" is, and what is a valid > basis of morality. Morality is the absence of sin! :-) So again I ask: Can your dog sin?
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