Groups > sci.physics > #586345 > unrolled thread

Are English school children really taught that there are seven colours in the visible spectrum?

Started by	Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com>
First post	2016-06-23 20:24 +0100
Last post	2016-06-24 11:46 -0700
Articles	16 on this page of 36 — 8 participants

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#586457

From	Jerry Kraus <jkraus1999@gmail.com>
Date	2016-06-24 06:43 -0700
Message-ID	<2e87d30e-bdf5-4ffa-a4ba-fecb4baccd6e@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#586345

On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-5, Peter Percival wrote:
> I know that Newton pretended that there were seven colours in the 
> rainbow (presumably he didn't really believe it).  It seems that English 
> school children are being taught that it's true:
> 
>    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36577208 .
> 
> 
> -- 
> A high and rising proportion of children are being born to mothers
> least fitted to bring children into the world.... Some are of low
> intelligence, most of low educational attainment. They are unlikely
> to be able to give children the stable emotional background, the
> consistent combination of love and firmness.... They are producing
> problem children.... The balance of our human stock, is threatened...
> 		Sir Keith Joseph

Perception is subjective.   Why shouldn't they?

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#586458

From	Jerry Kraus <jkraus1999@gmail.com>
Date	2016-06-24 13:26 -0700
Message-ID	<bb654b69-68d7-473b-a035-396823df20d6@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#586345

On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-5, Peter Percival wrote:
> I know that Newton pretended that there were seven colours in the 
> rainbow (presumably he didn't really believe it).  It seems that English 
> school children are being taught that it's true:
> 
>    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36577208 .
> 
> 
> -- 
> A high and rising proportion of children are being born to mothers
> least fitted to bring children into the world.... Some are of low
> intelligence, most of low educational attainment. They are unlikely
> to be able to give children the stable emotional background, the
> consistent combination of love and firmness.... They are producing
> problem children.... The balance of our human stock, is threatened...
> 		Sir Keith Joseph

Color is subjective perception, what difference does it make?

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#586514

From	Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com>
Date	2016-06-24 23:50 -0400
Message-ID	<rrvrmbd26c8q0kmk04b67cgmpp3k5j7cf6@4ax.com>
In reply to	#586458

On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:26:11 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Kraus wrote:

>On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-5, Peter Percival wrote:
>> I know that Newton pretended that there were seven colours in the 
>> rainbow (presumably he didn't really believe it).  It seems that English 
>> school children are being taught that it's true:
>> 
>>    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36577208 .
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> A high and rising proportion of children are being born to mothers
>> least fitted to bring children into the world.... Some are of low
>> intelligence, most of low educational attainment. They are unlikely
>> to be able to give children the stable emotional background, the
>> consistent combination of love and firmness.... They are producing
>> problem children.... The balance of our human stock, is threatened...
>> 		Sir Keith Joseph
>
>Color is subjective perception, what difference does it make?

Because it will be on the tests the school children will be graded on.

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#586537

From	jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date	2016-06-25 05:09 +0000
Message-ID	<49g14d-e9a.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to	#586514

Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:26:11 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Kraus wrote:
> 
>>On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-5, Peter Percival wrote:
>>> I know that Newton pretended that there were seven colours in the 
>>> rainbow (presumably he didn't really believe it).  It seems that English 
>>> school children are being taught that it's true:
>>> 
>>>    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36577208 .
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> A high and rising proportion of children are being born to mothers
>>> least fitted to bring children into the world.... Some are of low
>>> intelligence, most of low educational attainment. They are unlikely
>>> to be able to give children the stable emotional background, the
>>> consistent combination of love and firmness.... They are producing
>>> problem children.... The balance of our human stock, is threatened...
>>>              Sir Keith Joseph
>>
>>Color is subjective perception, what difference does it make?
> 
> Because it will be on the tests the school children will be graded on.

And it appears they are being told the "correct" answer.

I highly doubt most school children would understand all the nits about
culture and language. 

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#586582

From	Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com>
Date	2016-06-25 11:11 -0400
Message-ID	<gm6tmbl79sn6o3gcctfaq80lpjnbmjqh6h@4ax.com>
In reply to	#586537

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 05:09:24 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:26:11 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Kraus wrote:
>> 
>>>On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-5, Peter Percival wrote:
>>>> I know that Newton pretended that there were seven colours in the 
>>>> rainbow (presumably he didn't really believe it).  It seems that English 
>>>> school children are being taught that it's true:
>>>> 
>>>>    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36577208 .
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> A high and rising proportion of children are being born to mothers
>>>> least fitted to bring children into the world.... Some are of low
>>>> intelligence, most of low educational attainment. They are unlikely
>>>> to be able to give children the stable emotional background, the
>>>> consistent combination of love and firmness.... They are producing
>>>> problem children.... The balance of our human stock, is threatened...
>>>>              Sir Keith Joseph
>>>
>>>Color is subjective perception, what difference does it make?
>> 
>> Because it will be on the tests the school children will be graded on.
>
>And it appears they are being told the "correct" answer.

If they want to be "correct" in their answer on the test, they had
better parrot the correct indoctrination.

They may need to un-learn this "information" later:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo
Modern color scientists typically divide the spectrum between violet
and blue at about 450 nm, with no indigo.


>I highly doubt most school children would understand all the nits about
>culture and language. 

So what? They don't need to understand it for the description to be
relevant to the expression of their perception.

You immediately snipped this for some reason:

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6490400-you-don-t-see-something-until-you-have-the-right-metaphor
"You don’t see something until you have the right metaphor to let you
perceive it"

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#586587

From	jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date	2016-06-25 15:38 +0000
Message-ID	<p4l24d-tae.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to	#586582

Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 05:09:24 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> 
>>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:26:11 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Kraus wrote:
>>> 
>>>>On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-5, Peter Percival wrote:
>>>>> I know that Newton pretended that there were seven colours in the 
>>>>> rainbow (presumably he didn't really believe it).  It seems that English 
>>>>> school children are being taught that it's true:
>>>>> 
>>>>>    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36577208 .
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> A high and rising proportion of children are being born to mothers
>>>>> least fitted to bring children into the world.... Some are of low
>>>>> intelligence, most of low educational attainment. They are unlikely
>>>>> to be able to give children the stable emotional background, the
>>>>> consistent combination of love and firmness.... They are producing
>>>>> problem children.... The balance of our human stock, is threatened...
>>>>>              Sir Keith Joseph
>>>>
>>>>Color is subjective perception, what difference does it make?
>>> 
>>> Because it will be on the tests the school children will be graded on.
>>
>>And it appears they are being told the "correct" answer.
> 
> If they want to be "correct" in their answer on the test, they had
> better parrot the correct indoctrination.
> 
> They may need to un-learn this "information" later:

Which is essentially true for much of grade school level education as
it needs to be simplified for the age level. 

First introduction to math: 1+1=2
Add complexity of number base: 1+1=10

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo
> Modern color scientists typically divide the spectrum between violet
> and blue at about 450 nm, with no indigo.
> 
> 
>>I highly doubt most school children would understand all the nits about
>>culture and language. 
> 
> So what? They don't need to understand it for the description to be
> relevant to the expression of their perception.

I doubt most school children would be able to parse "relevant to the
expression of their perception".

> You immediately snipped this for some reason:

Because I did not have an immediate comment on it.

> http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6490400-you-don-t-see-something-until-you-have-the-right-metaphor
> "You don?t see something until you have the right metaphor to let you
> perceive it"

And again, I highly doubt English school children are speaking much
of anything other than English.
 

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#586593

From	Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com>
Date	2016-06-25 12:13 -0400
Message-ID	<t4btmbl8em4l0eto5qgh21l11hc1o24a5v@4ax.com>
In reply to	#586587

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:38:33 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 05:09:24 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> 
>>>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2016 13:26:11 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Kraus wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-5, Peter Percival wrote:
>>>>>> I know that Newton pretended that there were seven colours in the 
>>>>>> rainbow (presumably he didn't really believe it).  It seems that English 
>>>>>> school children are being taught that it's true:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36577208 .
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> A high and rising proportion of children are being born to mothers
>>>>>> least fitted to bring children into the world.... Some are of low
>>>>>> intelligence, most of low educational attainment. They are unlikely
>>>>>> to be able to give children the stable emotional background, the
>>>>>> consistent combination of love and firmness.... They are producing
>>>>>> problem children.... The balance of our human stock, is threatened...
>>>>>>              Sir Keith Joseph
>>>>>
>>>>>Color is subjective perception, what difference does it make?
>>>> 
>>>> Because it will be on the tests the school children will be graded on.
>>>
>>>And it appears they are being told the "correct" answer.
>> 
>> If they want to be "correct" in their answer on the test, they had
>> better parrot the correct indoctrination.
>> 
>> They may need to un-learn this "information" later:
>
>Which is essentially true for much of grade school level education as
>it needs to be simplified for the age level. 
>
>First introduction to math: 1+1=2
>Add complexity of number base: 1+1=10
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo
>> Modern color scientists typically divide the spectrum between violet
>> and blue at about 450 nm, with no indigo.
>> 
>> 
>>>I highly doubt most school children would understand all the nits about
>>>culture and language. 
>> 
>> So what? They don't need to understand it for the description to be
>> relevant to the expression of their perception.
>
>I doubt most school children would be able to parse "relevant to the
>expression of their perception".

I wouldn't use that phrasing with a fifth-grader.

I had higher expectations of most readers here.

Mark's post was *about* school children, not *to* them.


>> You immediately snipped this for some reason:
>
>Because I did not have an immediate comment on it.
>
>> http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6490400-you-don-t-see-something-until-you-have-the-right-metaphor
>> "You don?t see something until you have the right metaphor to let you
>> perceive it"
>
>And again, I highly doubt English school children are speaking much
>of anything other than English.

Which is not to their credit.

Many German school children learn more than one language. 

Do you have an argument with the statement from Gleick's book ...
other than a fifth-grader might not understand it?

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#586610

From	jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date	2016-06-25 16:50 +0000
Message-ID	<2bp24d-voe.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to	#586593

Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:38:33 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

<snip>

>>I doubt most school children would be able to parse "relevant to the
>>expression of their perception".
> 
> I wouldn't use that phrasing with a fifth-grader.

That's the whole point, the information has to be appropriate to the
age of the students.

> I had higher expectations of most readers here.
> 
> Mark's post was *about* school children, not *to* them.

My comments are about what is appropriate for school children.

<snip>

> Which is not to their credit.
> 
> Many German school children learn more than one language. 

In most places foreign languages are not introduced until the high
school level. Elementry school is for learning to read, write, and
speak your native language properly.

> Do you have an argument with the statement from Gleick's book ...
> other than a fifth-grader might not understand it?

Nope, other that it is not a reason to get one's panties in a twist
because school children are given a simplifed explaination. 

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#586623

From	Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com>
Date	2016-06-25 13:53 -0400
Message-ID	<h0htmbt46in20sl2leh2b9rb732agkp5bq@4ax.com>
In reply to	#586610

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:50:10 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:38:33 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>
><snip>
> 
>>>I doubt most school children would be able to parse "relevant to the
>>>expression of their perception".
>> 
>> I wouldn't use that phrasing with a fifth-grader.
>
>That's the whole point, the information has to be appropriate to the
>age of the students.
>
>> I had higher expectations of most readers here.
>> 
>> Mark's post was *about* school children, not *to* them.
>
>My comments are about what is appropriate for school children.
>
><snip>
>
>> Which is not to their credit.
>> 
>> Many German school children learn more than one language. 
>
>In most places foreign languages are not introduced until the high
>school level. Elementry school is for learning to read, write, and
>speak your native language properly.
>
>> Do you have an argument with the statement from Gleick's book ...
>> other than a fifth-grader might not understand it?
>
>Nope, other that it is not a reason to get one's panties in a twist
>because school children are given a simplifed explaination. 

How is it "simplified" to include a seventh color that is not
recognized by modern color scientists as being a distinct region
within the spectrum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo
Modern color scientists typically divide the spectrum between violet
and blue at about 450 nm, with no indigo.

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#586670

From	jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date	2016-06-25 20:20 +0000
Message-ID	<2m534d-j0g.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to	#586623

Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:50:10 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> 
>>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:38:33 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>> 
>>>>I doubt most school children would be able to parse "relevant to the
>>>>expression of their perception".
>>> 
>>> I wouldn't use that phrasing with a fifth-grader.
>>
>>That's the whole point, the information has to be appropriate to the
>>age of the students.
>>
>>> I had higher expectations of most readers here.
>>> 
>>> Mark's post was *about* school children, not *to* them.
>>
>>My comments are about what is appropriate for school children.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> Which is not to their credit.
>>> 
>>> Many German school children learn more than one language. 
>>
>>In most places foreign languages are not introduced until the high
>>school level. Elementry school is for learning to read, write, and
>>speak your native language properly.
>>
>>> Do you have an argument with the statement from Gleick's book ...
>>> other than a fifth-grader might not understand it?
>>
>>Nope, other that it is not a reason to get one's panties in a twist
>>because school children are given a simplifed explaination. 
> 
> How is it "simplified" to include a seventh color that is not
> recognized by modern color scientists as being a distinct region
> within the spectrum?

Perhaps because an English speaking person with normal color vision
will see 7 distinct regions.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#586682

From	Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com>
Date	2016-06-25 17:08 -0400
Message-ID	<k5rtmb9a4v0keeti8fgj9nm1ur7u2osioh@4ax.com>
In reply to	#586670

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:20:50 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:50:10 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> 
>>>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:38:33 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>> 
>>>>>I doubt most school children would be able to parse "relevant to the
>>>>>expression of their perception".
>>>> 
>>>> I wouldn't use that phrasing with a fifth-grader.
>>>
>>>That's the whole point, the information has to be appropriate to the
>>>age of the students.
>>>
>>>> I had higher expectations of most readers here.
>>>> 
>>>> Mark's post was *about* school children, not *to* them.
>>>
>>>My comments are about what is appropriate for school children.
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>> Which is not to their credit.
>>>> 
>>>> Many German school children learn more than one language. 
>>>
>>>In most places foreign languages are not introduced until the high
>>>school level. Elementry school is for learning to read, write, and
>>>speak your native language properly.
>>>
>>>> Do you have an argument with the statement from Gleick's book ...
>>>> other than a fifth-grader might not understand it?
>>>
>>>Nope, other that it is not a reason to get one's panties in a twist
>>>because school children are given a simplifed explaination. 
>> 
>> How is it "simplified" to include a seventh color that is not
>> recognized by modern color scientists as being a distinct region
>> within the spectrum?
>
>Perhaps because an English speaking person with normal color vision
>will see 7 distinct regions.

Cite?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo
The human eye does not readily differentiate hues in the wavelengths
between blue and violet. If this is where Newton meant indigo to lie,
most individuals would have difficulty distinguishing indigo from its
neighbors.

Modern color scientists typically divide the spectrum between violet
and blue at about 450 nm, with no indigo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_spectrum
The human eye is relatively insensitive to indigo's frequencies, and
some people who have otherwise-good vision cannot distinguish indigo
from blue and violet.

The table in the "Spectral colors" section of this wiki article has
only six colors. It does not include indigo.

http://www.wonderfulcolors.org/blog/the-science-of-color/
The pure spectral colors create a perpetual spectrum, and the way it’s
separated into clear colors linguistically is a matter of our culture
and how people have always perceived colors. There are 6 major bands:
red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet. Isaac Newton, who in
1671 named the familiar rainbow colors as “apparitions,” also included
a 7th color – indigo, which is between blue and violet. The optical
scientists Hardy and Perrin say that indigo is between 446 and 464 nm
wavelength.

The range of wavelengths for indigo is 18 nm wide.

Compare with the rest of the spectrum:

color            range, nm           width, nm

violet            380-450               70
blue             450-495               45
green           495-570               75
yellow          570-590               20
orange         590-620               30
red               620-750              130

The ability to resolve a narrow range of wavelengths peaks near
yellow.

Near the violet end of the spectrum, the resolving ability seems to be
lower.

The claim that a "person with normal color vision will see 7 distinct
regions" in the visible spectrum seems to have an odor.

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#586685

From	jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date	2016-06-25 21:40 +0000
Message-ID	<naa34d-oeg.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to	#586682

Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:20:50 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> 
>>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:50:10 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>> 
>>>>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:38:33 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>> 
>>>>>>I doubt most school children would be able to parse "relevant to the
>>>>>>expression of their perception".
>>>>> 
>>>>> I wouldn't use that phrasing with a fifth-grader.
>>>>
>>>>That's the whole point, the information has to be appropriate to the
>>>>age of the students.
>>>>
>>>>> I had higher expectations of most readers here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mark's post was *about* school children, not *to* them.
>>>>
>>>>My comments are about what is appropriate for school children.
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>> Which is not to their credit.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Many German school children learn more than one language. 
>>>>
>>>>In most places foreign languages are not introduced until the high
>>>>school level. Elementry school is for learning to read, write, and
>>>>speak your native language properly.
>>>>
>>>>> Do you have an argument with the statement from Gleick's book ...
>>>>> other than a fifth-grader might not understand it?
>>>>
>>>>Nope, other that it is not a reason to get one's panties in a twist
>>>>because school children are given a simplifed explaination. 
>>> 
>>> How is it "simplified" to include a seventh color that is not
>>> recognized by modern color scientists as being a distinct region
>>> within the spectrum?
>>
>>Perhaps because an English speaking person with normal color vision
>>will see 7 distinct regions.
> 
> Cite?

Empirical evidence, i.e. I looked at several pictures of rainbows
and counted the distinct bands. Each time I got 7 and I know for
a fact I have normal color vision.

BTW, before all this started, I didn't identify with indigo but blueish
purple.

What do you see?


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#586692

From	Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com>
Date	2016-06-25 18:20 -0400
Message-ID	<kcvtmb18bb37g6u5q62p3kebf5h5ns8g59@4ax.com>
In reply to	#586685

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:40:07 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:20:50 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> 
>>>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:50:10 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:38:33 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>><snip>
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>I doubt most school children would be able to parse "relevant to the
>>>>>>>expression of their perception".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I wouldn't use that phrasing with a fifth-grader.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's the whole point, the information has to be appropriate to the
>>>>>age of the students.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I had higher expectations of most readers here.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mark's post was *about* school children, not *to* them.
>>>>>
>>>>>My comments are about what is appropriate for school children.
>>>>>
>>>>><snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is not to their credit.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Many German school children learn more than one language. 
>>>>>
>>>>>In most places foreign languages are not introduced until the high
>>>>>school level. Elementry school is for learning to read, write, and
>>>>>speak your native language properly.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you have an argument with the statement from Gleick's book ...
>>>>>> other than a fifth-grader might not understand it?
>>>>>
>>>>>Nope, other that it is not a reason to get one's panties in a twist
>>>>>because school children are given a simplifed explaination. 
>>>> 
>>>> How is it "simplified" to include a seventh color that is not
>>>> recognized by modern color scientists as being a distinct region
>>>> within the spectrum?
>>>
>>>Perhaps because an English speaking person with normal color vision
>>>will see 7 distinct regions.
>> 
>> Cite?
>
>Empirical evidence, i.e. I looked at several pictures of rainbows
>and counted the distinct bands. Each time I got 7 and I know for
>a fact I have normal color vision.
>
>BTW, before all this started, I didn't identify with indigo but blueish
>purple.
>
>What do you see?

I don't know how objective my counting is now, but I see maybe six
colors near the trees:
http://www.primordial-light.com/images/rainbow_080623_end.png

If I counted more, I might not stop at seven.

This clip from Star Trek TNG come to mind in the context of possible
indoctrination by teachers:
<https://www.youtube.com/embed/3kmG7KXxShM?rel=0&start=0&end=8&autoplay=1>
Piccard's captor was trying to make him doubt his count.

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#586696

From	jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Date	2016-06-25 22:51 +0000
Message-ID	<bhe34d-dng.ln1@mail.specsol.com>
In reply to	#586692

Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:40:07 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

<snip>
 
>>What do you see?
> 
> I don't know how objective my counting is now, but I see maybe six
> colors near the trees:
> http://www.primordial-light.com/images/rainbow_080623_end.png
> 
> If I counted more, I might not stop at seven.

You might try a better picture that has a white background.

> This clip from Star Trek TNG come to mind in the context of possible
> indoctrination by teachers:
> <https://www.youtube.com/embed/3kmG7KXxShM?rel=0&start=0&end=8&autoplay=1>
> Piccard's captor was trying to make him doubt his count.

Actually the Cardassian was trying to break Piccard's will; think 24th
Century water boarding. 

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#586709

From	benj <benj@nobody.net>
Date	2016-06-25 19:25 -0400
Message-ID	<576f12fc$0$5679$b1db1813$e2fc9064@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#586692

On 6/25/2016 6:20 PM, Wally W. wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:40:07 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>
>> Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 20:20:50 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:50:10 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:38:33 -0000, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I doubt most school children would be able to parse "relevant to the
>>>>>>>> expression of their perception".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't use that phrasing with a fifth-grader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's the whole point, the information has to be appropriate to the
>>>>>> age of the students.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had higher expectations of most readers here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark's post was *about* school children, not *to* them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My comments are about what is appropriate for school children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is not to their credit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many German school children learn more than one language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In most places foreign languages are not introduced until the high
>>>>>> school level. Elementry school is for learning to read, write, and
>>>>>> speak your native language properly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you have an argument with the statement from Gleick's book ...
>>>>>>> other than a fifth-grader might not understand it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope, other that it is not a reason to get one's panties in a twist
>>>>>> because school children are given a simplifed explaination.
>>>>>
>>>>> How is it "simplified" to include a seventh color that is not
>>>>> recognized by modern color scientists as being a distinct region
>>>>> within the spectrum?
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps because an English speaking person with normal color vision
>>>> will see 7 distinct regions.
>>>
>>> Cite?
>>
>> Empirical evidence, i.e. I looked at several pictures of rainbows
>> and counted the distinct bands. Each time I got 7 and I know for
>> a fact I have normal color vision.
>>
>> BTW, before all this started, I didn't identify with indigo but blueish
>> purple.
>>
>> What do you see?
>
> I don't know how objective my counting is now, but I see maybe six
> colors near the trees:
> http://www.primordial-light.com/images/rainbow_080623_end.png
>
> If I counted more, I might not stop at seven.
>
> This clip from Star Trek TNG come to mind in the context of possible
> indoctrination by teachers:
> <https://www.youtube.com/embed/3kmG7KXxShM?rel=0&start=0&end=8&autoplay=1>
> Piccard's captor was trying to make him doubt his count.
>
Which shows you that some of what we call color is psychological.
My question would be what to your mind looks like a new "color" rather 
than a mix or shade. For example, Newton originally left Orange, and 
indigo out of rainbow colors. Well, part of this is understandable 
because orange doesn't rhyme with anything, but I ask you: Does orange 
look like a new color to you or does it look like red-yellow? I don't 
know about you or Englishmen, but to me it DOES NOT look like red-yellow 
and clearly seems to be a new color in my mind.

On the other hand looking at "indigo" and it doesn't have the same 
pizzazz. Indigo clearly seems to me to be a shade of blue-purple.

The same argument goes for yellow-Blue. We simply don't think in terms 
of yellow-blue. To our minds (or at least mine) it is always it's own 
color: GREEN!

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#586467

From	Jerry Kraus <jkraus1999@gmail.com>
Date	2016-06-24 11:46 -0700
Message-ID	<c82d1dca-a24a-4980-b68b-a8310703fbc6@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#586345

On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-5, Peter Percival wrote:
> I know that Newton pretended that there were seven colours in the 
> rainbow (presumably he didn't really believe it).  It seems that English 
> school children are being taught that it's true:
> 
>    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36577208 .
> 
> 
> -- 
> A high and rising proportion of children are being born to mothers
> least fitted to bring children into the world.... Some are of low
> intelligence, most of low educational attainment. They are unlikely
> to be able to give children the stable emotional background, the
> consistent combination of love and firmness.... They are producing
> problem children.... The balance of our human stock, is threatened...
> 		Sir Keith Joseph

Sure, why not?   Perception is just subjective, anyway.

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Are English school children really taught that there are seven colours in the visible spectrum?

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