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Groups > sci.physics > #897059 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-02 15:13 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-06 08:17 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 131 — 15 participants |
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97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-02 15:13 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-02 23:34 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-02 16:57 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-03 10:33 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-10-03 15:36 +0200
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-03 16:07 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2026-10-03 18:23 +0200
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-04 07:24 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-04 11:37 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-05 18:04 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-10-03 19:03 +0200
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-04 07:24 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-03 17:16 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-04 02:17 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 05:24 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-04 02:29 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-04 02:30 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 16:39 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" John Hasler <john@sugarbit.com> - 2026-10-03 16:15 -0500
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-04 07:28 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-04 02:10 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-04 11:38 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-05 01:51 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-04 18:02 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-05 02:10 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-04 18:27 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-04 11:18 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-05 02:29 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-10-04 18:43 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-05 10:07 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-06 04:41 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-04 13:13 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-05 06:39 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-05 10:19 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-06 06:08 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-05 23:42 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-06 07:17 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 00:36 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-06 14:07 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-06 08:13 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 10:22 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-06 10:52 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-06 07:33 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 10:10 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-06 17:42 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-06 19:46 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-07 07:31 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-07 07:55 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-07 08:51 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-07 09:12 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-07 16:49 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2026-10-07 19:31 +0200
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-07 10:09 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-07 11:44 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-07 12:19 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-07 16:10 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-07 09:46 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-07 17:37 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-07 10:11 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-08 01:51 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 21:53 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-06 23:17 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-07 08:22 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-07 10:15 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-07 12:02 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-07 13:34 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-07 14:25 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-08 01:59 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-07 12:11 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-08 04:03 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-07 14:30 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-08 08:05 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-07 16:05 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-08 08:16 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-07 18:02 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> - 2026-10-07 21:07 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-03 01:46 +1000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-02 10:37 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-03 16:03 +1000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-03 00:08 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 03:51 +1100
GNSS (was: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS") Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-10-07 19:48 +0200
Re: GNSS Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-07 11:35 -0700
Re: GNSS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-10-07 23:34 +0200
Re: GNSS Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> - 2026-10-07 16:37 -0700
Re: GNSS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-10-08 06:48 +0200
Re: GNSS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-10-07 23:02 +0200
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-10-02 19:31 +0200
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-03 06:50 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 05:15 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-04 02:25 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-04 02:46 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-04 19:56 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-04 13:22 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-05 19:33 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-06 12:05 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 16:28 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 00:16 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-07 21:19 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-07 21:42 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-07 10:15 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-08 01:45 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-07 11:47 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-10-08 03:29 +0800
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-07 15:47 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 16:22 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 00:07 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 23:26 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> - 2026-10-06 10:38 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-06 09:28 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 23:34 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Someone <864c855e3d64399dc06fa30ebb75526c2c2e73db7216b16a3d4cf03e8a52ec3b@example.com> - 2026-10-02 18:45 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-03 08:56 +0000
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 03:57 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-03 10:21 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 05:00 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-03 14:02 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-04 16:25 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-04 10:13 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-05 17:24 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-05 09:07 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-05 10:16 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 17:39 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-06 08:05 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2026-10-05 20:05 +0200
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de> - 2026-10-05 20:18 +0200
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@htigct.com> - 2026-10-05 12:50 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 17:46 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-06 08:07 -0700
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-10-06 17:28 +1100
Re: 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-10-06 08:17 -0700
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| From | Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-06 21:53 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <r9hbclt01f9rlcbobglc6pcik57cppi2d8@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #897166 |
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: > >Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote: > >>Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote: > >> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote: > >> > Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: > >> >>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote: > >> >> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world > >> >> >> some use sonar. > >> >> > > >> >> >Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine > >> >> >their location by sonar? > >> >> > > >> >> >Good luck with that. > >> >> > >> >> Those who not want to see are effectively blind > >> >> > >> >> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost. > >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar > >> >> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works > >> > > >> > > >> > So where do they say whales can determine their location > >> > by sonar? > >> > > >> > "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind." > >> > >> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a > >> compass. > > You really have no clue and never even used those things or designed those things So you're admitting you were wrong, and that sonar alone can't tell you your location. You also seem to be claiming you've used sonar and radar, or you have designed them. Please do tell us about the experience! Sharing your wisdom would be way better than hurling random insults. > >> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of > >> you. > > Even in the simplest case, say in a sea or lake > looking left distance 1 > looking right distance 2 > looking forward distance 3 > Looking backward distance 4 > Looking down for how far from sea floor, > looking up for depth > > -------- > | | > | U | > | | > | | > -------- What is this supposed to be? Are you operating sonar in a swimming pool? a rectangular lake with walls? Are you using directional sonar? Is it 3d sonar? Do whales have directional sonar? What does a "coastline echo" even look like? Do you have to surface the submarine and look through binoculars to see if there's a coastline? How do you tell your location on Earth from all this? > Now by 'looking around' you know exactly where you are relative to the coastlines. > https://techdiy.info/cursor-en/how-far-can-sonar-detect/ > 300 miles range > 600 miles between coastlines / islands / seafloor terrain. No. Your reference says a sonar ping can travel up to 300 miles. It doesn't say you can get an echo return from 300 miles away. Besides it would take over 10 minutes for the echo to return. It says nothing at all about coastline or 600 miles. Where are you getting this from? "Several miles" is a better estimate of sonar range, probably less for directional sonar. > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=can+sonar+from+a+depth+measure+the+sea+surface+distance > Search Assist > Sonar can measure the distance from a depth sensor to the sea surface by > pointing an upward-looking transducer upward and timing the echo return. Wow! You can use sonar to tell how deep you are! Goodbye, simple pressure sensor! > Normally I would reply with: For 10 US dollies I will say you are right, > for 15 I will say it twice, give you a discount. Or, I could just be right for free, and spare my dollies the indignity. > > But REALLY get a clue
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| From | Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-06 23:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <11a4o67$2j9v3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #897158 |
On 10/6/26 07:33, Jim Pennino wrote: > ... > It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a > compass. > > Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of > you. Sonar can do far better than that. <https://news.yale.edu/1997/09/17/yale-university-sonar-robot-can-tell-heads-tails-modeled-after-bat-and-dolphin-echolocati> > > A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic > field. A pilot should know the difference between heading and bearing. A "bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic field" doesn't even make sense.
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| From | Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-07 08:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <gn4ipm-t22v.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> |
| In reply to | #897173 |
In sci.physics Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> wrote: > On 10/6/26 07:33, Jim Pennino wrote: > >> ... >> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >> compass. >> >> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >> you. > > Sonar can do far better than that. > > <https://news.yale.edu/1997/09/17/yale-university-sonar-robot-can-tell-heads-tails-modeled-after-bat-and-dolphin-echolocati> > >> >> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >> field. > > A pilot should know the difference between heading and bearing. > A "bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic field" doesn't even make sense. A heading is the angular direction you are going or plan to go. A bearing is the angular direction of somewhere else from your current position. The angular direction is measured as either relative to true North or magnetic North corrected for local magnetic variation. There is also generally a difference among course, heading, and track. -- penninojim@yahoo.com
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| From | Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-07 10:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <11a5uo2$32u3g$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #897178 |
On 10/7/26 08:22, Jim Pennino wrote: > In sci.physics Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> wrote: >> On 10/6/26 07:33, Jim Pennino wrote: >> >>> ... >>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >>> compass. >>> >>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >>> you. >> >> Sonar can do far better than that. >> >> <https://news.yale.edu/1997/09/17/yale-university-sonar-robot-can-tell-heads-tails-modeled-after-bat-and-dolphin-echolocati> >> >>> >>> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >>> field. >> >> A pilot should know the difference between heading and bearing. >> A "bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic field" doesn't even make sense. > > A heading is the angular direction you are going or plan to go. No, that's a bearing. A heading is whatever direction the nose is pointing. Add wind correction to that to get bearing. > A bearing is the angular direction of somewhere else from your current > position. You left North Pole out, but good enough. > The angular direction is measured as either relative to true North or > magnetic North corrected for local magnetic variation. There are two longitudes from where true North and magnetic North will be perfectly lined up. You're not likely to be on either. > > There is also generally a difference among course, heading, and track. Draw a course on a map. You might fly the same course either direction, on the same day. Wind won't blow the course around. But it will mess up your heading so that your bearing doesn't track the course.
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| From | Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-07 12:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <bihipm-pfsv.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> |
| In reply to | #897187 |
In sci.physics Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> wrote: > On 10/7/26 08:22, Jim Pennino wrote: >> In sci.physics Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> wrote: >>> On 10/6/26 07:33, Jim Pennino wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >>>> compass. >>>> >>>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >>>> you. >>> >>> Sonar can do far better than that. >>> >>> <https://news.yale.edu/1997/09/17/yale-university-sonar-robot-can-tell-heads-tails-modeled-after-bat-and-dolphin-echolocati> >>> >>>> >>>> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >>>> field. >>> >>> A pilot should know the difference between heading and bearing. >>> A "bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic field" doesn't even make sense. >> >> A heading is the angular direction you are going or plan to go. > > No, that's a bearing. A heading is whatever direction the nose is > pointing. Add wind correction to that to get bearing. Nope. When a trip is planned, the initial heading has nothing to do with where the nose might be pointing. Once the vessel starts moving, then where the nose is pointing at any particular moment is the current heading. En route wind correction and local magnetic variance determine the current heading to get to where you want to go. > >> A bearing is the angular direction of somewhere else from your current >> position. > > You left North Pole out, but good enough. Read the nest sentence. > >> The angular direction is measured as either relative to true North or >> magnetic North corrected for local magnetic variation. > > There are two longitudes from where true North and magnetic North will > be perfectly lined up. You're not likely to be on either. No shit? What do you think magnetic variation is about? >> >> There is also generally a difference among course, heading, and track. > > Draw a course on a map. You might fly the same course either direction, > on the same day. Wind won't blow the course around. But it will mess up > your heading so that your bearing doesn't track the course. No shit? Maybe that's why heading is constantly corrected for both magnetic variance and wind en route. -- penninojim@yahoo.com
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| From | Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-07 13:34 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <11a6acm$37klb$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #897199 |
On 10/7/26 12:02, Jim Pennino wrote: > In sci.physics Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> wrote: >> On 10/7/26 08:22, Jim Pennino wrote: >>> In sci.physics Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> wrote: >>>> On 10/6/26 07:33, Jim Pennino wrote: >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >>>>> compass. >>>>> >>>>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >>>>> you. >>>> >>>> Sonar can do far better than that. >>>> >>>> <https://news.yale.edu/1997/09/17/yale-university-sonar-robot-can-tell-heads-tails-modeled-after-bat-and-dolphin-echolocati> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >>>>> field. >>>> >>>> A pilot should know the difference between heading and bearing. >>>> A "bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic field" doesn't even make sense. >>> >>> A heading is the angular direction you are going or plan to go. >> >> No, that's a bearing. A heading is whatever direction the nose is >> pointing. Add wind correction to that to get bearing. > > Nope. > > When a trip is planned, the initial heading has nothing to do with where > the nose might be pointing. The heading ALWAYS IS where the nose is pointing. The initial heading isn't going to "might be" where the nose is pointing. You're going to drift off the course that you planned, and that means the bearing to your intended target has changed. So adjust your heading - you can accept the new bearing if it won't put you into a mountain, or you can adjust your heading a little bit more to get yourself back on the original course ASAP. And track? That's the zig-zag line behind you because you're not very good at this. > Once the vessel starts moving, then where > the nose is pointing at any particular moment is the current heading. The airplane has a heading while it's parked -> Magnetic Compass, it's always on.
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| From | Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-07 14:25 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <pupipm-5fm01.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> |
| In reply to | #897204 |
In sci.physics Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> wrote: > On 10/7/26 12:02, Jim Pennino wrote: >> In sci.physics Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> wrote: >>> On 10/7/26 08:22, Jim Pennino wrote: >>>> In sci.physics Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> wrote: >>>>> On 10/6/26 07:33, Jim Pennino wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ... >>>>>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >>>>>> compass. >>>>>> >>>>>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >>>>>> you. >>>>> >>>>> Sonar can do far better than that. >>>>> >>>>> <https://news.yale.edu/1997/09/17/yale-university-sonar-robot-can-tell-heads-tails-modeled-after-bat-and-dolphin-echolocati> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >>>>>> field. >>>>> >>>>> A pilot should know the difference between heading and bearing. >>>>> A "bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic field" doesn't even make sense. >>>> >>>> A heading is the angular direction you are going or plan to go. >>> >>> No, that's a bearing. A heading is whatever direction the nose is >>> pointing. Add wind correction to that to get bearing. >> >> Nope. >> >> When a trip is planned, the initial heading has nothing to do with where >> the nose might be pointing. > > The heading ALWAYS IS where the nose is pointing. > The initial heading isn't going to "might be" where the nose is pointing. > > You're going to drift off the course that you planned, and that means > the bearing to your intended target has changed. So adjust your heading > - you can accept the new bearing if it won't put you into a mountain, or > you can adjust your heading a little bit more to get yourself back on > the original course ASAP. > > And track? That's the zig-zag line behind you because you're not very > good at this. > > >> Once the vessel starts moving, then where >> the nose is pointing at any particular moment is the current heading. > > The airplane has a heading while it's parked -> Magnetic Compass, it's > always on. Yeah, sure. -- penninojim@yahoo.com
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| From | Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-08 01:59 +0800 |
| Message-ID | <QLvxS.405$SBg4.74@fx09.ams4> |
| In reply to | #897158 |
On 10/6/2026 10:33 PM, Jim Pennino wrote: > In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote: >> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>> Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote: >>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>>> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world >>>>> some use sonar. >>>> >>>> Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine >>>> their location by sonar? >>>> >>>> Good luck with that. >>> >>> Those who not want to see are effectively blind >>> >>> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar >>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works >> >> >> So where do they say whales can determine their location >> by sonar? >> >> "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind." > > It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a > compass. > > Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of > you. > > A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic > field. > > To determine a location you also geographic data, i.e. a map of some > sort. > Or memory, or a general idea of where you are. I believe the solar com- pass is meant to tell you how to get to shore, if you get lost in the Atlantic [1]. All you need to know is how to head east, and you'll get to shore eventually. A bit of bummer if the vikings would then end up in the Baltic Sea rather than Germany or Norway, or something like that but you do what you have to, to find land. Wasn't it someone here who said animals went to a general area, rather than a location? Well, so do people, and then navigate from there. Best wishes, and happy navigation! [1] Previously known as the Ethiopian Sea, imagine that. -- Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/ I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:; Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social
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| From | Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-07 12:11 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d4iipm-pfsv.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> |
| In reply to | #897193 |
In sci.physics Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: > On 10/6/2026 10:33 PM, Jim Pennino wrote: >> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote: >>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>> Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote: >>>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world >>>>>> some use sonar. >>>>> >>>>> Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine >>>>> their location by sonar? >>>>> >>>>> Good luck with that. >>>> >>>> Those who not want to see are effectively blind >>>> >>>> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost. >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar >>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works >>> >>> >>> So where do they say whales can determine their location >>> by sonar? >>> >>> "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind." >> >> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >> compass. >> >> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >> you. >> >> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >> field. >> >> To determine a location you also geographic data, i.e. a map of some >> sort. >> > > Or memory, or a general idea of where you are. I believe the solar com- > pass is meant to tell you how to get to shore, if you get lost in the > Atlantic [1]. All you need to know is how to head east, and you'll get > to shore eventually. A bit of bummer if the vikings would then end up > in the Baltic Sea rather than Germany or Norway, or something like that > but you do what you have to, to find land. > > Wasn't it someone here who said animals went to a general area, rather > than a location? Well, so do people, and then navigate from there. Yeah, historically. You do know inertial navigation is making a comeback these days? > > > Best wishes, and happy navigation! > > > [1] Previously known as the Ethiopian Sea, imagine that. -- penninojim@yahoo.com
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| From | Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-08 04:03 +0800 |
| Message-ID | <1AxxS.14904$B9ef.9387@fx04.ams4> |
| In reply to | #897200 |
On 10/8/2026 3:11 AM, Jim Pennino wrote: > In sci.physics Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >> On 10/6/2026 10:33 PM, Jim Pennino wrote: >>> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote: >>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>>> Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote: >>>>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world >>>>>>> some use sonar. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine >>>>>> their location by sonar? >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck with that. >>>>> >>>>> Those who not want to see are effectively blind >>>>> >>>>> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost. >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar >>>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works >>>> >>>> >>>> So where do they say whales can determine their location >>>> by sonar? >>>> >>>> "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind." >>> >>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >>> compass. >>> >>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >>> you. >>> >>> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >>> field. >>> >>> To determine a location you also geographic data, i.e. a map of some >>> sort. >>> >> >> Or memory, or a general idea of where you are. I believe the solar com- >> pass is meant to tell you how to get to shore, if you get lost in the >> Atlantic [1]. All you need to know is how to head east, and you'll get >> to shore eventually. A bit of bummer if the vikings would then end up >> in the Baltic Sea rather than Germany or Norway, or something like that >> but you do what you have to, to find land. >> >> Wasn't it someone here who said animals went to a general area, rather >> than a location? Well, so do people, and then navigate from there. > > Yeah, historically. > > You do know inertial navigation is making a comeback these days? > Using the gyro-sensors [I'm ignorant of the correct technical term] in phones I imagine? All I know is that if I mean to walk, the route sug- gested by the phone map is total bullshit, and I'm better off learning the route on my own. Of course, that doesn't work much in a foreign city, but most of our walking is done on home base [1]. So I don't know about you, but I think the maps and the routing algo- rithms need more immediate updating, rather than the location techno- logy. Best wishes, and happy walks in life! [1] In the science fiction sense, like moon base, and not baseball. -- Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/ I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:; Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social
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| From | Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-07 14:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <58qipm-5fm01.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> |
| In reply to | #897203 |
In sci.physics Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: > On 10/8/2026 3:11 AM, Jim Pennino wrote: >> In sci.physics Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >>> On 10/6/2026 10:33 PM, Jim Pennino wrote: >>>> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote: >>>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote: >>>>>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world >>>>>>>> some use sonar. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine >>>>>>> their location by sonar? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good luck with that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Those who not want to see are effectively blind >>>>>> >>>>>> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost. >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar >>>>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So where do they say whales can determine their location >>>>> by sonar? >>>>> >>>>> "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind." >>>> >>>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >>>> compass. >>>> >>>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >>>> you. >>>> >>>> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >>>> field. >>>> >>>> To determine a location you also geographic data, i.e. a map of some >>>> sort. >>>> >>> >>> Or memory, or a general idea of where you are. I believe the solar com- >>> pass is meant to tell you how to get to shore, if you get lost in the >>> Atlantic [1]. All you need to know is how to head east, and you'll get >>> to shore eventually. A bit of bummer if the vikings would then end up >>> in the Baltic Sea rather than Germany or Norway, or something like that >>> but you do what you have to, to find land. >>> >>> Wasn't it someone here who said animals went to a general area, rather >>> than a location? Well, so do people, and then navigate from there. >> >> Yeah, historically. >> >> You do know inertial navigation is making a comeback these days? >> > > Using the gyro-sensors [I'm ignorant of the correct technical term] in > phones I imagine? All I know is that if I mean to walk, the route sug- > gested by the phone map is total bullshit, and I'm better off learning > the route on my own. Umm, no, serious, world wide navigation in the current era of GPS jamming and spoofing over wide areas of the world. Using state of the art low drift, high accuaracy gyros and automatticaly updated by whatever navigation resources remain available. > > Of course, that doesn't work much in a foreign city, but most of our > walking is done on home base [1]. > > So I don't know about you, but I think the maps and the routing algo- > rithms need more immediate updating, rather than the location techno- > logy. > > > Best wishes, and happy walks in life! > > [1] In the science fiction sense, like moon base, and not baseball. -- penninojim@yahoo.com
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| From | Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-08 08:05 +0800 |
| Message-ID | <R6BxS.10908$AQqd.2543@fx11.ams4> |
| In reply to | #897207 |
On 10/8/2026 5:30 AM, Jim Pennino wrote: >>>> Wasn't it someone here who said animals went to a general area, rather >>>> than a location? Well, so do people, and then navigate from there. >>> Yeah, historically. >>> >>> You do know inertial navigation is making a comeback these days? >>> >> Using the gyro-sensors [I'm ignorant of the correct technical term] in >> phones I imagine? All I know is that if I mean to walk, the route sug- >> gested by the phone map is total bullshit, and I'm better off learning >> the route on my own. > Umm, no, serious, world wide navigation in the current era of GPS > jamming and spoofing over wide areas of the world. > > Using state of the art low drift, high accuaracy gyros and automatticaly > updated by whatever navigation resources remain available. Fair enough. Note that people have known about G.P.S. jamming and spoofing for at least a decade, probably more. It was around 2015 when I got interested in cryptography and computer security, and encountered such notions in the literature. So, it's a little /annoying/ but very human [1] that we have waited un- til now to make it happen. So now you need to account for the /whatever navigation resources/ be- ing also spoofed. I mean, people can intentionally fiddle with wifi signals in order to make you think -- or at minimum, make Google think -- you're somewhere you're not. That has happened to me, before, when it "helpfully" associated a mobile wifi dongle as /home/. Here is an article that is /helpfully/ trying to make you buy something expensive, https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-mobile-hotspots when a cheap plastic with a slot for a S.I.M. card and a battery will do the trick without any built-in L.C.D. But you should get the idea. That was certainly /more accurate/ than just using the G.P.S. signal I guess, no matter it pinned my map to the wrong city. On that subject, maybe I should buy one of these mobile wifi plastics for myself, since I'm out and about more than I used to? The common wisdom here, ca. decade ago, is that they provided better mobile signals than the phones on their own. Something to ask next time I find myself in a mall. Are you American, do you have many deserted malls in your area? Not that it matters to the discussion at hand, but here they flourish. Anyway, this is an /old/ problem, but wasn't used maliciously enough to matter until in the last four years or so, and now people are scrambling to figure out how to counter it. Shouldn't they have had the technology already on the market, ready and waiting for the /opportunity/? Isn't that what Milton Freedman is always teaching us, in his videos? Best wishes, and happy location technology! [1] In Icelandic, there's a common saying that means something like /it is too late to cover the well, once the child has fallen into it/, and means that people are extremely reluctant to actually do any work to prevent disasters, but readily accept the task of dealing with the con- sequences instead. What I find interesting is that I find no such idiom nor expression in English dictionaries of the same kind. Don't the English and the Ameri- cans also have children, and wells? -- Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/ I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:; Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social
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| From | john larkin <jl@htigct.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-07 16:05 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <t0kdclhqpq232chj131suc7cq0k0qm2deh@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #897158 |
On Tue, 6 Oct 2026 07:33:13 -0700, Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote: >In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote: >> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote: >>> >Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>> >>> >> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world >>> >> some use sonar. >>> > >>> >Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine >>> >their location by sonar? >>> > >>> >Good luck with that. >>> >>> Those who not want to see are effectively blind >>> >>> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar >>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works >> >> >> So where do they say whales can determine their location >> by sonar? >> >> "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind." > >It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >compass. > >Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >you. > >A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >field. > >To determine a location you also geographic data, i.e. a map of some >sort. https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/55408993/electronic-design-gps-free-magnav-is-immune-to-spoofing-and-jamming
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| From | Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-08 08:16 +0800 |
| Message-ID | <BhBxS.16781$xra3.5709@fx16.ams4> |
| In reply to | #897211 |
On 10/8/2026 7:05 AM, john larkin wrote: > On Tue, 6 Oct 2026 07:33:13 -0700, Jim Pennino > <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote: > >> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote: >>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>> Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote: >>>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world >>>>>> some use sonar. >>>>> >>>>> Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine >>>>> their location by sonar? >>>>> >>>>> Good luck with that. >>>> >>>> Those who not want to see are effectively blind >>>> >>>> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost. >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar >>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works >>> >>> >>> So where do they say whales can determine their location >>> by sonar? >>> >>> "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind." >> >> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >> compass. >> >> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >> you. >> >> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >> field. >> >> To determine a location you also geographic data, i.e. a map of some >> sort. > > https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/55408993/electronic-design-gps-free-magnav-is-immune-to-spoofing-and-jamming So, what happens if you put a fridge magnet on the sensor? That's not explicitly covered in the article that I merely skimmed through. Shouldn't that /distort/ at least the magnetic field surrounding the apparatus? [1] How does the built-in software cope with that? Can it read the rest of the magnetic earth wrong because of it? And what happens if you exponentialize the budget, and use one of them rare earth magnets instead with a much greater Tesla [2]? I'm sure the /Defense Innovation Unit/ has thought of all these quest- ions, but being a three letter agency, don't always tell us the truth. Best wishes, and happy magnetism! [1] We are allowed to use this term, rather than /device/ right, even if were making science fiction a reality, rather than fantasy? [2] Unrelated to the cars by Elon, of course. -- Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/ I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:; Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social
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| From | john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-07 18:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7sqdclhutct0uh91sn04ngaiqltmflpfj2@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #897214 |
On Thu, 8 Oct 2026 08:16:31 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: >On 10/8/2026 7:05 AM, john larkin wrote: >> On Tue, 6 Oct 2026 07:33:13 -0700, Jim Pennino >> <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote: >> >>> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote: >>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>>> Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote: >>>>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world >>>>>>> some use sonar. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine >>>>>> their location by sonar? >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck with that. >>>>> >>>>> Those who not want to see are effectively blind >>>>> >>>>> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost. >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar >>>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works >>>> >>>> >>>> So where do they say whales can determine their location >>>> by sonar? >>>> >>>> "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind." >>> >>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >>> compass. >>> >>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >>> you. >>> >>> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >>> field. >>> >>> To determine a location you also geographic data, i.e. a map of some >>> sort. >> >> https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/55408993/electronic-design-gps-free-magnav-is-immune-to-spoofing-and-jamming > >So, what happens if you put a fridge magnet on the sensor? That's not >explicitly covered in the article that I merely skimmed through. Don't do that. > >Shouldn't that /distort/ at least the magnetic field surrounding the >apparatus? [1] How does the built-in software cope with that? Can it >read the rest of the magnetic earth wrong because of it? > >And what happens if you exponentialize the budget, and use one of them >rare earth magnets instead with a much greater Tesla [2]? > > >I'm sure the /Defense Innovation Unit/ has thought of all these quest- >ions, but being a three letter agency, don't always tell us the truth. > > >Best wishes, and happy magnetism! > >[1] We are allowed to use this term, rather than /device/ right, even if >were making science fiction a reality, rather than fantasy? > >[2] Unrelated to the cars by Elon, of course. John Larkin Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center Lunatic Fringe Electronics
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| From | Jim Pennino <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-07 21:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ohhjpm-hlc21.ln1@gonzo.specsol.net> |
| In reply to | #897214 |
In sci.physics Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote: > On 10/8/2026 7:05 AM, john larkin wrote: >> On Tue, 6 Oct 2026 07:33:13 -0700, Jim Pennino >> <jimp@gonzo.specsol.net> wrote: >> >>> In sci.physics Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j> wrote: >>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>>> Jeremiah Jones <jj@j.j>wrote: >>>>>> Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> There are also sea ceatures that travel halfway around the world >>>>>>> some use sonar. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now you're going to tell us how whales can determine >>>>>> their location by sonar? >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck with that. >>>>> >>>>> Those who not want to see are effectively blind >>>>> >>>>> Same for those who do not want to learn, those are effectivly lost. >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_mammals_and_sonar >>>>> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/echolocation-is-nature-built-in-sonar-here-is-how-it-works >>>> >>>> >>>> So where do they say whales can determine their location >>>> by sonar? >>>> >>>> "Those who see what isn't written are effectively blind." >>> >>> It is impossible to determine location with just radar, sonar or a >>> compass. >>> >>> Radar and sonar just tell you there is something, or nothing, in front of >>> you. >>> >>> A compass just provides a bearing relative to the Earth's magnetic >>> field. >>> >>> To determine a location you also geographic data, i.e. a map of some >>> sort. >> >> https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/55408993/electronic-design-gps-free-magnav-is-immune-to-spoofing-and-jamming > > So, what happens if you put a fridge magnet on the sensor? That's not > explicitly covered in the article that I merely skimmed through. > > Shouldn't that /distort/ at least the magnetic field surrounding the > apparatus? [1] How does the built-in software cope with that? Can it > read the rest of the magnetic earth wrong because of it? It's much worse than that. The World Magnetic Model High Resoluion (WMMHR2025) has a spatial resolution of about 300 kilometers at the equator and about 200 kilometers at mid latitudes. The accuracy is also highly dependent on the geomagnetic activity level. This will never be a high accuracy geolocation system. > > And what happens if you exponentialize the budget, and use one of them > rare earth magnets instead with a much greater Tesla [2]? > > > I'm sure the /Defense Innovation Unit/ has thought of all these quest- > ions, but being a three letter agency, don't always tell us the truth. > > > Best wishes, and happy magnetism! > > [1] We are allowed to use this term, rather than /device/ right, even if > were making science fiction a reality, rather than fantasy? > > [2] Unrelated to the cars by Elon, of course. -- penninojim@yahoo.com
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| From | Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-03 01:46 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <119ojm0$27gm0$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #897059 |
On 3/10/2026 1:13 am, Jan Panteltje wrote: > From: > https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm > > 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" > Date: > October 2, 2026 > Source: > University of Cambridge > Summary: > Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest evidence of > an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS. > Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an unknown ocean > creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision. We've known about animals sensing the earth's magnetic field and using it for navigation for many years now. but the one thing we do know for sure is that this hasn't got anything to do with our global position system, which relies on remarkably precises clocks in orbit around the earth which transmit very precise time signals at microwave frequencies. You've got to be able to receive signals from at least four satellites at the same time to be able to work out where you (and you can do it pretty precisely). The earth's magnetic field drifts around quite a bit, and reverses from time to time, more of less randomly - there have been at least 183 reversals over the last 83 million years (which averages out to one every 450,000 years, but the most recent one was 780.000 years ago). Sensing the earth's magnetic field is a useful trick, but it's a lot less than a navigation system. Ships have had compasses for quite while now, but nobody call them a "global positioning system". -- Bill Sloman, Sydney
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| From | Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-02 10:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <119oq50$2aco0$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #897062 |
On 10/2/26 08:46, Bill Sloman wrote: > On 3/10/2026 1:13 am, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> From: >> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm >> >> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" >> Date: >> October 2, 2026 >> Source: >> University of Cambridge >> Summary: >> Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest >> evidence of >> an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS. >> Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an unknown >> ocean >> creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision. > > We've known about animals sensing the earth's magnetic field and using > it for navigation for many years now. but the one thing we do know for > sure is that this hasn't got anything to do with our global position > system, which relies on remarkably precises clocks in orbit around the > earth which transmit very precise time signals at microwave frequencies. > > You've got to be able to receive signals from at least four satellites > at the same time to be able to work out where you (and you can do it > pretty precisely). Well, you gave us an incomplete sentence, "...to be able to work out where you..." so nobody can be sure what you're talking about. Four satellites needed for navigation, three satellites for position. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System GPS requires four or more satellites to be visible for accurate navigation. There are marked performance benefits to the user carrying a clock synchronized with the satellites. Foremost is that only three satellites are needed to compute a position solution. Although four satellites are required for normal operation, fewer apply in special cases. If one variable is already known, a receiver can determine its position using only three satellites. For example, a ship on the open ocean usually has a known elevation close to 0 m, and the elevation of an aircraft may be known. > > The earth's magnetic field drifts around quite a bit, and reverses from > time to time, more of less randomly - there have been at least 183 > reversals over the last 83 million years (which averages out to one > every 450,000 years, but the most recent one was 780.000 years ago). > > Sensing the earth's magnetic field is a useful trick, but it's a lot > less than a navigation system. Ships have had compasses for quite while > now, but nobody call them a "global positioning system".
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| From | Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-03 16:03 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <119q5ss$2o88c$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #897067 |
On 3/10/2026 3:37 am, Old McDonald wrote: > On 10/2/26 08:46, Bill Sloman wrote: >> On 3/10/2026 1:13 am, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> From: >>> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm >>> >>> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS" >>> Date: >>> October 2, 2026 >>> Source: >>> University of Cambridge >>> Summary: >>> Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest >>> evidence of >>> an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS. >>> Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an unknown >>> ocean >>> creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision. >> >> We've known about animals sensing the earth's magnetic field and using >> it for navigation for many years now. but the one thing we do know for >> sure is that this hasn't got anything to do with our global position >> system, which relies on remarkably precises clocks in orbit around the >> earth which transmit very precise time signals at microwave frequencies. >> >> You've got to be able to receive signals from at least four satellites >> at the same time to be able to work out where you are (and you can do it >> pretty precisely). > > Well, you gave us an incomplete sentence, "...to be able to work out > where you..." so nobody can be sure what you're talking about. It's called a "typo". Somebody as stupid as you seem to be might have been left in some doubt about what I meant. > Four satellites needed for navigation, three satellites for position. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System > > GPS requires four or more satellites to be visible for accurate navigation. > > There are marked performance benefits to the user carrying a clock > synchronized with the satellites. Foremost is that only three satellites > are needed to compute a position solution. > > Although four satellites are required for normal operation, fewer apply > in special cases. If one variable is already known, a receiver can > determine its position using only three satellites. For example, a ship > on the open ocean usually has a known elevation close to 0 m, and the > elevation of an aircraft may be known. So what. >> The earth's magnetic field drifts around quite a bit, and reverses >> from time to time, more of less randomly - there have been at least >> 183 reversals over the last 83 million years (which averages out to >> one every 450,000 years, but the most recent one was 780.000 years ago). >> >> Sensing the earth's magnetic field is a useful trick, but it's a lot >> less than a navigation system. Ships have had compasses for quite >> while now, but nobody call them a "global positioning system". -- Bill Sloman. Sydney
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| From | Old McDonald <eieio@patch.corn> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-03 00:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <119q9lu$2ptpt$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #897072 |
On 10/2/26 23:03, Bill Sloman wrote:
> On 3/10/2026 3:37 am, Old McDonald wrote:
>> On 10/2/26 08:46, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>> On 3/10/2026 1:13 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> From:
>>>> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/09/260930020329.htm
>>>>
>>>> 97-million-year-old fossils reveal the earliest known animal "GPS"
>>>> Date:
>>>> October 2, 2026
>>>> Source:
>>>> University of Cambridge
>>>> Summary:
>>>> Mysterious 97-million-year-old magnetic fossils may be the oldest
>>>> evidence of
>>>> an animal using Earth's magnetic field like a built-in GPS.
>>>> Their sophisticated magnetic structure could have helped an
>>>> unknown ocean
>>>> creature navigate thousands of kilometers with surprising precision.
>>>
>>> We've known about animals sensing the earth's magnetic field and
>>> using it for navigation for many years now. but the one thing we do
>>> know for sure is that this hasn't got anything to do with our global
>>> position system, which relies on remarkably precises clocks in orbit
>>> around the earth which transmit very precise time signals at
>>> microwave frequencies.
>>>
>>> You've got to be able to receive signals from at least four
>>> satellites at the same time
>>> to be able to work out where you are
^^^
>> (and you can do it pretty precisely).
>> Well, you gave us an incomplete sentence, "...to be able to work out
>> where you..." so nobody can be sure what you're talking about.
>
> It's called a "typo". Somebody as stupid as you seem to be might have
> been left in some doubt about what I meant.
Oh look, you went back and snuck "are" into the already quoted material!
>> Four satellites needed for navigation, three satellites for position.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System
>>
>> GPS requires four or more satellites to be visible for accurate
>> navigation.
>>
>> There are marked performance benefits to the user carrying a clock
>> synchronized with the satellites. Foremost is that only three
>> satellites are needed to compute a position solution.
>>
>> Although four satellites are required for normal operation, fewer
>> apply in special cases. If one variable is already known, a receiver
>> can determine its position using only three satellites. For example, a
>> ship on the open ocean usually has a known elevation close to 0 m, and
>> the elevation of an aircraft may be known.
>
> So what.
It's a major difference. That's so what.
Each satellite puts you somewhere on the surface of a sphere.
Adding satellites whittles that down to a circle, two points, one point.
Earth is a sphere, and when you're pretty sure you're on it, you can
lose the fourth satellite.
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